Shonak wrote:
About the decline: Tour 2010 didn't really go in his favour. I'm still sure though that he could have settled it all on the Col du Tourmalet back then. As for 2012, he came back without nearly no race practice and won the Vuelta (although with some major smarts and luck). Too little to call it a possible sign of decline, but neither a dominat year. In my opinion, 2013 remains still as the only year since 2007 that saw no Grand Tour win and thus he clearly lacked form last year, however he still doesn't lack the general quality (well - technically 2010 & 2011 didn't see Grand Tour wins either but you know, for the sake of the argument ).
What do you call 'didn't go in his favour'? There was the Arenberg stage, but apart from that...? And he did try to attack Schleck near the top of the Tourmalet (after Schleck had ridden pretty much the entire way on the front since the attack at 10 kms to go) but barely put 5 meters of advantage on Schleck - just like all his attacks on the other mountain stages. And in the 2012 Vuelta, he indeed won it, but did he ever put time on Rodriguez on any mountain stage? Not to mention losing time to Valverde and even tired Froome at a few stages. Put that next to the pre-suspension Contador, and there isn't even a comparison.
fosforgasXIII wrote:
I don't think Contador wasn't exceptionally good in the Giro of 2011, was just participating against a lesser field. Any Tour winner would dominate the Giro if he's good. A good Froome would win the Giro with 8-10 minute advantage (maybe less this year with Quintana). Two months later in the Tour he could barely follow his rivals, and if it wasn't for that Alpe d'Huez stage it would've been a total humiliation for him.
I agree Froome could definitely put such a gap at the Giro (not this year though ), but Froome did put the biggest Tour winning gap since Armstrong... unsure about Bertie's climbing times/watts in the Giro, could be interesting to see it. That said, he definitely wasn't 'humiliated' in the Tour. Apart from the Galibier, in which he cracked big time, the only climbing stage in which he lost time was in Luz Ardiden, when he was suffering with a knee injury following his several crashes on the first week. Apart from that, he nearly won stage 4 and put time on most of the favorites on stage 16.
Strydz wrote:
There is no possible way to enjoy this years TDF other than to embrace the dope show, treat it like WWF and laugh your arse off at the return of a Full Retard race around France
What a narrow minded view. Every elitesport has dope involved to a certain degree. Sprinters has been tested positive the past 2 decades for AAS, the same goes for NHL players + HgH products. Whether it is heavily dope or injury healing dope, it is everywhere in elite sport.
Why do you have this eagerly need to "know" that the race you are watching is "clean"? .. The quality, the experiences, the spectalucar attacks etc. is amazing to watch - dope or not it should not affect the "show" you are seeing, or whatever entertainment you are into.
How is it narrow minded? Of course it affects the way I watch it, if I want fantasy then that rubbish like WWF or Game of Thrones is the way I'd go but when it comes to cycling I would rather watch people pushing to the limits of what the human can do and not what the right "doctor" can do. I love cycling but not so much pro cycling, there are aspects that are enjoyable but I don't have a favourite fanboy like rider or team, I don't get patriotic about my country's riders but what I do care about is that the are cheating to gain an advantage, being juiced up is not needed for the sport to be exciting. Yes this years Tour will be dope V dope and a farce but I hold out hope for actual human endeavour along the way. Still don't get the narrow minded call
Oh and I have no interest in other sports as they bore me no end
Life is too short to be pissed and annoyed buy seeing elitesports as fantasys just like Game of Thrones.
It has been pointed out several times, that dope gives and egde between 2-13 % (something like this). By this logic you could still say 90%+ is what the human body can perform. Its a shame imo to have that view on the things, since you are missing so much entertainment and spectacular races without enjoying. But its fairly up to you
Aquarius wrote:
Since my opinion was expressly requested, not that it's anything more than a random person's opinion, but anyway...
I don't have a crystal ball, nobody has, and I'm not a psychic, nor an insider, so I have no clue what's going on with Contador nor with Team Sky's riders these days. It's only guessing. Some guesses are probably closer than others, but so far we lack perspective. Remind me to think about it again in a couple of years, we'll probably know more then.
I don't really buy the ageing theory for Contador, I'd rather subscribe to the "can't/couldn't dope well enough" one. Again, it's just guessing. I fully agree with Tinkov's lack of morality, he'll win at any cost, the rest is not his concern.
One more thing : so far this season we've not really had 40-60 minutes long climbs, which is the relevant effort duration for TDF GC guys. We've not had so many numbers from Contador either, so it's hard to tell if he's already performing like what's needed to win a TDF or if he's just above others but at a TDF top-10 level or something like that.
On the other hand, connecting the dots, it seems there's something fishy at Sky. Either there's some new test around that has flagged Henao and forced them to go easy on the dope aspect, either they've suddenly messed up racing schedules, form peaks schedules, etc. Hard to believe.
At the moment it looks like Contador will be in a league of his own in July whereas Froome will barely be able to keep up with the others.
But here again, we couldn't see Froome perform on the relevant effort durations.
And, as Strydz, if I wanted to see some fantasy, I'd rather watch WWF or something, rather than a parody of cycling. Or perhaps Moto GP could do, since it's a two wheelers non humanly powered formula.
You know for me that your opinions and arguments is the most valued. You rate way higher than other random guys, atleast for me
Yes we do lack perspective, Contador just seems to be in a better shape compared to the rest. But im 100percent that his numbers and performances is better than last year, he did not have it in him to attack or put pressure on the others. He was weak-consistent in most races.
I was also on the "Contador-did-not-dope-well-enough-train" last year, and I continue to believe so.
It is weird to see Sky dominate almost every stage-race for 2years+ and now, everyone seems weak and far from their performances in 2012-13 at this point of the season. Smells fishy...
If/when (later in the season) we will get some more watt/kg numbers and other data, it will be very interesting to compare and analyze those
Edited by Ybodonk on 10-04-2014 12:03
Luigi@ A bit serious a bit of fun/trolling. But you know what it takes in most sports to reach the very top. In cycling you have seen pros (not stars) all of sudden retire at the age of mid 20's. They wanna focus on being a doctor/accountant/lawyer you name it.
I think some just realize that the name of the game is not something they wanna be a part of, due to morals, and they find another path to enjoy life and earn money.
Fosforgas@ The Alpe D'Huez Stage 2011 is one of my favourite stages of all time (along with Alpe D'Huez 2003), damn it was action and attacking by Contador from 17km or something like that
Ybodonk wrote:
Life is too short to be pissed and annoyed buy seeing elitesports as fantasys just like Game of Thrones.
It has been pointed out several times, that dope gives and egde between 2-13 % (something like this). By this logic you could still say 90%+ is what the human body can perform. Its a shame imo to have that view on the things, since you are missing so much entertainment and spectacular races without enjoying. But its fairly up to you
The sport is dying in Germany, that's why I'm pissed.
Just this season: Thüringen Rundfahrt - gone. Team Thüringer Energie - gone.
This country needs believable, clean results that stand for years to gain any bit of reputation and public support back that was lost in the last decade.
It's not Belgium where you get 85% viewing figures in the last RVV kilometres, this is Germany where you get 5 minutes of TV attention at 7am in some morning show when you win MSR...
I know exactly zero German people personally that I can have a focussed and competent cycling discussion with.
Ybodonk wrote:
Luigi@ A bit serious a bit of fun/trolling. But you know what it takes in most sports to reach the very top. In cycling you have seen pros (not stars) all of sudden retire at the age of mid 20's. They wanna focus on being a doctor/accountant/lawyer you name it.
I think some just realize that the name of the game is not something they wanna be a part of, due to morals, and they find another path to enjoy life and earn money.
So you're saying you're fine with the way it is as long as it gives you entertainment? You're fine with doping, because that's just the way it works? And those who have moral or medical concerns, well, that's just a pity for them? I'd say that's a far narrower view.
And then there's what Cio said. It does harm the sport. Many races have already been cancelled or shortened because of a lack of sponsor money. There's basically no professional structures in a country like Germany.
I understand that it can limit your enjoyment of cycling and that it's easier to blank that out, but you shouldn't judge others who worry about the future of the sport and don't.
Ybodonk wrote:
Life is too short to be pissed and annoyed buy seeing elitesports as fantasys just like Game of Thrones.
It has been pointed out several times, that dope gives and egde between 2-13 % (something like this). By this logic you could still say 90%+ is what the human body can perform. Its a shame imo to have that view on the things, since you are missing so much entertainment and spectacular races without enjoying. But its fairly up to you
The sport is dying in Germany, that's why I'm pissed.
Just this season: Thüringen Rundfahrt - gone. Team Thüringer Energie - gone.
This country needs believable, clean results that stand for years to gain any bit of reputation and public support back that was lost in the last decade.
It's not Belgium where you get 85% viewing figures in the last RVV kilometres, this is Germany where you get 5 minutes of TV attention at 7am in some morning show when you win MSR...
I know exactly zero German people personally that I can have a focussed and competent cycling discussion with.
That is why I hate dopers.
I know about the situation in Germany, since im your neigboor (from DK).
Well, i know it has been tough times, but I mean the entire Team Telekom did admit heavy dope. I think its sad that it hurts the TV-time, but the policy from the TV-stations are bit more conservative compared here to DK - what a shame !
Ybodonk wrote:
Luigi@ A bit serious a bit of fun/trolling. But you know what it takes in most sports to reach the very top. In cycling you have seen pros (not stars) all of sudden retire at the age of mid 20's. They wanna focus on being a doctor/accountant/lawyer you name it.
I think some just realize that the name of the game is not something they wanna be a part of, due to morals, and they find another path to enjoy life and earn money.
So you're saying you're fine with the way it is as long as it gives you entertainment? You're fine with doping, because that's just the way it works? And those who have moral or medical concerns, well, that's just a pity for them? I'd say that's a far narrower view.
And then there's what Cio said. It does harm the sport. Many races have already been cancelled or shortened because of a lack of sponsor money. There's basically no professional structures in a country like Germany.
I understand that it can limit your enjoyment of cycling and that it's easier to blank that out, but you shouldn't judge others who worry about the future of the sport and don't.
I have been watching cycling for almost 18years now. Believe me the first 10 years I was blind, naive and believed in them being clean. Heck, I even had the eager to feel and believe in what i was watching, was "real". But you grow up, you learn more and more about dirty/corruptive sides of every sport. Im just more a cynist, who lives with the current situation.
However I do believe that the peloton is way more cleaner than 10-17 years ago.
So you could say i can accept the dope, as long as the "heros" is having the almost same conditions. I just want the game to be equal, so the best man can win. And yes i can admit this could sound like dobbel standard.
I know many sponsors has been redrawing etc. But on the other hand, I think there is more money in cycling in general, compared to any other time period. I mean there is relatively many teams with big budgets, which was unheard of 10-15years ago.
Katusha, Sky, Saxo-Tinkoff, BMC, Astana, Omega Pharma, Trek and Garmin. All teams with significant budgets. And the general interest in cycling (on the globalized level) is also increasing, more TV-times, more countries getting involved etc.
I do not think it is as bad as it looks even though some teams have to close here and there (and thats ofc sad! )
Edited by Ybodonk on 10-04-2014 13:00
Teams might relatively thrive these days, but races are dying, and the new ones are UCI sponsored but a massive loss of money.
There's no level playing field either, as stated on the previous page or the page before, not all riders are equal responders to certain dopes, not all of them can afford the same doping schedule, etc.
From a more physical viewpoint, more dope means faster rides, which also means more dragging effect, and less benefits in attacks or solo efforts against a group.
On the other hand, can someone be surprised with things like that in society that is used on LYING and FRAUDS?
We look at all that girls on magazines and shows, who are photoshopped and dont look like that in real.
We are somewhat accepting all day lies from politicians. When there is politician who speaks truth, he is shot dead or being pushed out of power.
Half of people are pretending they are something else on the internet than they are in real life.
I think too many people are just living with fact, that there is bullshit going on around us, so they just start accepting that to make their life and social interaction easier. Dont do that to cycling please. As long as there is at least bunch of people that wants clean cycling, we can believe. Dont forget that riders dope because of you, more you cheer for them, more advertisment, more money to his pocket in form of salary. stop cheering for dopers and they will have no reason to do it.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Dont forget that riders dope because of you, more you cheer for them, more advertisment, more money to his pocket in form of salary. stop cheering for dopers and they will have no reason to do it.
Only problem is that we don't know who dopes and who doesn't (well we know some who are just too obvious). And if you can't cheer for anyone, then what's the point of watching cycling? Maybe Sagan dopes as well, stop cheering for him Avin!
I cheer because I like riders, not because I think they take doping or not. I'm fan of riders like Greipel, Rodriguez and Gibert even though I'm 95% sure they take/took doping. I think most riders at the top take still doping anyway.
I don't like Sky as well but not because I think they use doping (name me one WT team where no one takes doping), but because they take the fun out cycling with their boring mountain trains and their pseudo-scientific bullshit they use to explain their above normal performances.
Of course i was talking about the general attitude to doping and acceptance of it, not about single names here mate.
I said many times i cannot rule out that Sagan is doping, but i am sure that if he became too obvious from my point of view, or he is caught, i will be the first to go and spit in his face for what he did to me personally. It happened to me with my first hero Armstrong, who influenced me with his books, before i discovered all is lie
What I cant really understand is how people still can admire exdopers. What should we admire of them? How selfish they are? They dont care about the other riders who ride clean, the Sport we love because they dont give a f.. what will happen when they get cought and cycling is agian in a dopping scandall involve. They only care about themselfs and their big Egos and their willing to win at any cost. Riders like Armstrong, Contador, Di Luca or Valverde are the worst thing it could ever happend to cycling.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
[...]
/end of naive pseudo-philosophical rant
It still contains its fair share of truth, at least in my opinion. There is definitely a constant stream of lying and cheating in society. Politics, advertisement, sport, culture and most of all of course economy. Etc. Unfortunately it's part of modern life.
What I cant really understand is how people still can admire exdopers. What should we admire of them? How selfish they are? They dont care about the other riders who ride clean, the Sport we love because they dont give a f.. what will happen when they get cought and cycling is agian in a dopping scandall involve.
I don't think that you can judge people on what you think of them. You may not like Ex-dopers, you may think they don't care about the sport. I'd assume that they care about it more than you do after all it's their daily bread and it's their life. For us, it's just something we can obsess over.
Pro cyclists is often considered not a simple athlete job, but rather a higher calling. (Not sure about english here, but I think you're german so I say: Berufung statt nur ein Beruf ).
You get paid little for a lot of suffering. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of not caring. Surely, they care more about their personal glory and paycheck, like any person with a competitive, athlete spirit should (because otherwise, professional sportman is the wrong occupation for them!), but I don't think that cycling is just not an end's to a mean for them. Well, except maybe for Di Luca.
But anyway, Contador increases his lead on the World Tour Rankings. And more importantly, his TT skills are great again.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
[...]
/end of naive pseudo-philosophical rant
It still contains its fair share of truth, at least in my opinion. There is definitely a constant stream of lying and cheating in society. Politics, advertisement, sport, culture and most of all of course economy. Etc. Unfortunately it's part of modern life.
What I cant really understand is how people still can admire exdopers. What should we admire of them? How selfish they are? They dont care about the other riders who ride clean, the Sport we love because they dont give a f.. what will happen when they get cought and cycling is agian in a dopping scandall involve.
I don't think that you can judge people on what you think of them. You may not like Ex-dopers, you may think they don't care about the sport. I'd assume that they care about it more than you do after all it's their daily bread and it's their life. For us, it's just something we can obsess over.
Pro cyclists is often considered not a simple athlete job, but rather a higher calling. (Not sure about english here, but I think you're german so I say: Berufung statt nur ein Beruf ).
You get paid little for a lot of suffering. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of not caring. Surely, they care more about their personal glory and paycheck, like any person with a competitive, athlete spirit should (because otherwise, professional sportman is the wrong occupation for them!), but I don't think that cycling is just not an end's to a mean for them. Well, except maybe for Di Luca.
But anyway, Contador increases his lead on the World Tour Rankings. And more importantly, his TT skills are great again.
I don't know, maybe you are right, I believe there probably are former cheats who still care, probably most of them. But I don't (personally) dislike them because of what they do to the sport, or because they don't care, it's because they cheated. For me, that's one of the worst things you can do, especially in sport. It's also why I could never even come vaguely close to cheering for Contador, Millar, Di Luca, all those names, or even understand why anyone would want to be associated with them.
You know they didn't cheat on their own, they got help from some infamous doctors or coach. Conconni, Ferrari, Cecchini, Fuentes, Leinders, Ibarurgen-Taus, etc.
Why people want to associate with them when there are thousands of other doctors who can heal just as well, but just heal, is beyond where I place the limit of credibility.
).
), but Froome did put the biggest Tour winning gap since Armstrong... unsure about Bertie's climbing times/watts in the Giro, could be interesting to see it. That said, he definitely wasn't 'humiliated' in the Tour. Apart from the Galibier, in which he cracked big time, the only climbing stage in which he lost time was in Luz Ardiden, when he was suffering with a knee injury following his several crashes on the first week. Apart from that, he nearly won stage 4 and put time on most of the favorites on stage 16.
)
