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A little literature...
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:04
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setzel wrote:
Cadel without Ferrari at Tmobile
he got injured every time there was a race he was aiming for. same as Julich
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 20:04
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:07
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issoisso wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
I just researched a little, and it appears that Cadel Evans' doctor is ... Michele Ferrari, the blood doping doctor, and the guy who said that EPO was pretty much the same as orange juice  Ferrari, the same guy who "treated" Armstrong
where'd you get that?
It's mentioned in pretty much every Danish newspaper there is (also the most serious ones).
Do a Google search for "Cadel Evans + Ferrari", and you will find a whole bunch of articles. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:14
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CrueTrue wrote:
issoisso wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
I just researched a little, and it appears that Cadel Evans' doctor is ... Michele Ferrari, the blood doping doctor, and the guy who said that EPO was pretty much the same as orange juice Ferrari, the same guy who "treated" Armstrong
where'd you get that?
It's mentioned in pretty much every Danish newspaper there is (also the most serious ones).
Do a Google search for "Cadel Evans + Ferrari", and you will find a whole bunch of articles.
thanks.
I ran the search and looked at the first 7 pages of results. it's all talking about Contador and Vinokourov working with Ferrari, except a post in some forum where someone says he thinks Evans is working with Ferrari and he gets flamed by everyone. later in the thread someone mentions he's Rominger's client. he gets flamed by everyone saying that Evans' agent is some random personal friend.
that's all I found.
looking at Evans' official site, it says nothing about Ferrari on the section about the people he works with.
also, I found this juicy morsel:
Michael Rasmussen was the Tour leader until his team, Denmark-based Rabobank
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 20:21
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:27
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I just searched some more, and I can't find any further "evidence" either. All the Danish newspapers list him as a patient of Ferrari and says he's not trustworthy, but on my favourite "doping page", https://cyclisme.dopage.free.fr, he's not on the list of Ferrari's patients.
And that quote is just .. funny 
Edited by CrueTrue on 18-10-2007 20:28
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| mattiasgt |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:28
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issoisso wrote:
mattiasgt wrote:
Well I know all that(aha gravity, thats why you don't fall down when you are on the south pole), but what i meant was that you can't compare a flat stage with a mountain, pointing on the watt measured.
again, you've missed my point entirely. wattage is the power developed over a certain time. in this case, adjusted for the weight of the breakaway's stage winner (Voigt in the second example). the terrain has zero effect on the power you develop. it decreases the effects of that power (you move less) but the power is the same.
the terrain has zero effect on the power you develop
I'm starting to wonder if you have had any physics classes, cause thats completly wrong. You don't produce any watt yourself when you are rolling down a mountain. You only produce watts when you are pedaling and when you are experiance a resitance force like friction(or gravity).
So it means that Landis produced alot more than 283 watt when he was going upward cause that is a average value meaning 283 J/s on the whole stage.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:47
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mattiasgt wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if you have had any physics classes, cause thats completly wrong. You don't produce any watt yourself when you are rolling down a mountain. You only produce watts when you are pedaling.
So it means that Landis produced alot more than 283 watt when he was going upward cause that is a average value meaning 283 J/s on the whole stage.
good point. I hadn't thought of the downhill parts. I stand corrected
however, you do still pedal on descents. especially when you're fighting for every second. (I've got the whole stage on video)
and when you are experiance a resitance force like friction(or gravity)
not this part. we're talking about the force of his legs. the one he actually used up. wind resistance is not something that tires him. what tires is that you have to use more power with your legs because you want to go faster-as fast as you would be going if there was no wind resistance.
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 20:51
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 21:09
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| mattiasgt |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:50
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issoisso wrote:
mattiasgt wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if you have had any physics classes, cause thats completly wrong. You don't produce any watt yourself when you are rolling down a mountain. You only produce watts when you are pedaling and when you are experiance a resitance force like friction(or gravity).
So it means that Landis produced alot more than 283 watt when he was going upward cause that is a average value meaning 283 J/s on the whole stage.
good point. I hadn't thought of the downhill parts. I stand corrected
however, you do still pedal on descents. especially when you're fighting for every second. (I've got the whole stage on video)
Yup, but you don't produce much watt cause you don't got that much of resistance.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:52
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mattiasgt wrote:
Yup, but you don't produce much watt cause you don't got that much of resistance.
and I've acknowledged that. but you still do produce some
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:55
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anyway, this has gotten off the point. my point being that his average wattage - which, given that the total time during which they exerted their respective efforts is similar, can be compared at face value - is lower than Voigt's, and that as such, going by the same logic as the posts before, Voigt and the others in the break would have to be doped.
which is a ridiculous assumption if it's based just on this comparison
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 20:57
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mattiasgt |
Posted on 18-10-2007 21:06
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issoisso wrote:
anyway, this has gotten off the point. my point being that his average wattage - which, given that the total time during which they exerted their respective efforts is similar, can be compared at face value - is lower than Voigt's, and that as such, going by the same logic as the posts before, Voigt and the others in the break would have to be doped.
which is a ridiculous assumption if it's based just on this comparison
yep, i don't like the average comparisation. But who says that only the mountain riders are doped, tha flat rider could be doped aswell.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 21:11
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mattiasgt wrote:
who says that only the mountain riders are doped, tha flat rider could be doped aswell.
again, that's not one my points. my points are
1. that if someone's going to decide people are doped by comparing performances, they're saying Chavanel, Quinziato, Voigt and Pereiro are doped.
2. mattiasgt wrote:
yep, i don't like the average comparisation
that the average comparison makes no sense.
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 21:12
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 19-10-2007 00:28
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Ruben wrote:
I read it, and I still think Floyd is a big fat liar and a doper. 
At least you read it. If you have read it then i can say no more. But if you are going to draw a conclusion based on what the media says then It is my opinion that you should not have an opinion. I apologize if anyone took offence but the system is clearly corrupt.
In the US we have the death penalty. A posotive Dope Test is like the death penalty. For a person to be put to death there MUST be no doubt at ALL. None. Zip. Nada. There is clearly doubt in this case.
Issoisso pointed out that Landis Picked one of the Arbitrators in his arbitration hearing after I pointed out that the decision was split. However Landis was allowed to pick an arbitrator from a list of arbitrators compiled by USADA.
The "bullet proof" CIR test did NOT meet the criteria for a posotive test. In the test 4 breakdown metabolites are examined. If all the metabolites are examined and found to have a values greater than 3.8 then there is synthetic testosterone. If none of the values are abnormal there is no synthetic testosterone. All WADA acredited labs agree that all 4 metabolite values have to be abnormal. In Landis' case only 1 isotope calue is abnormal. Any competent lab would have thrown out those results because having 1 and not 3 others just doesn't happen. The Lab fucked up. This is undeniable science.
The percent error in the 1st and 2nd T/E tests are also unacceptable. Anyone who has ever done a high school level chemistry class would tell you that percent error number as high as 238 % can not be taken seriously and the process has to be rexamined. The Arbitrators acknowledged that this test was done wrong.
The T/E test should never have taken place. the specimen (7.7%)was contaminated beyond the acceptable level (5%)
The head of the WADA accredited lab at UCLA, when asked to examine the french labs graph work he said "I did no look for the bad ones, I looked for the good ones." He was also, as a rule by WADA, not allowed to testify against the French Lab's results. That is just stupid.
The French Lab did not have a manual for the testing machinery.
The French Technicians also knew who's sample it was. Not so anonymous.
Anonymous lab technicians from Australia, Switzerland and Landis' own adviser, Paul Scott, who worked as the number 2 guy for the UCLA lab, said that if the tests had been done at their labs the result would have been negative.
You cannot deny these and many more facts.
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| kida |
Posted on 19-10-2007 00:40
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CrueTrue wrote:
Well, instead of being disappointed over and over again I think it's time to realize that it's as good as impossible to compete in cycling on a top level without doping. That's what I think, and therefore I also think Evans is doped. Basically, I don't care much about it - I still enjoy cycling - but I have no reason to trust the cyclists .
WORD
I like Contador and a few other too, but as Ruben said a few months ago(can't remember which forum) "i wouldn't stick my hand in a fire for any of them". The thing that pisses me off the most about the doping issue is when Fan1 says that rider A is a doper, despite the fact that rider A has never failed a test etc etc, but then the person gets pissed when Fan2 says that rider B is a doper and Fan1 then uses the same defence to protect his favourite rider, which wasn't a valid defence when he was attacking rider A.
Anyway i really need to finish my essay or get some sleep instead.
Edited by kida on 19-10-2007 01:05
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| Panaflex |
Posted on 19-10-2007 04:22
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Levi4life wrote:
(...) In the US we have the death penalty. A posotive Dope Test is like the death penalty. For a person to be put to death there MUST be no doubt at ALL. None. Zip. Nada. There is clearly doubt in this case. (...)
No, no and no.
That is one of the most inappropriate comparisons I've ever stumbled across.
There is no basis for equating death sentence to a doping penalty.
I don't grasp how you come to draw any sort of analogy between these two - but you might as well elaborate on that.
Besides, are you trying to say that all cases of death sentence in the US have been based on overwhelming evidence?
Go ahead, enlighten me!
Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever.Lance
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 19-10-2007 05:45
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Panaflex wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
(...) In the US we have the death penalty. A posotive Dope Test is like the death penalty. For a person to be put to death there MUST be no doubt at ALL. None. Zip. Nada. There is clearly doubt in this case. (...)
No, no and no.
That is one of the most inappropriate comparisons I've ever stumbled across.
There is no basis for equating death sentence to a doping penalty.
I don't grasp how you come to draw any sort of analogy between these two - but you might as well elaborate on that.
Besides, are you trying to say that all cases of death sentence in the US have been based on overwhelming evidence?
Go ahead, enlighten me!
The death penalty is only handed down when the jury is 100 % certain of the guilt of the accused. A special session of the Supreme Court of California was held around here recently and one of the cases discussed was a death penalty case. This man was a monster. He raped an 18 year old girl then killed her with a pair of scissors. And it wasn't his first offence either. He had just got out of prison for another rape. There was so much evidence against him that he was already convicted and the debate was over, weather or not he deserved to die was the question.
At this point in cycling a ban equates to the death penalty for a cyclist. His life, his reputation, his family and friends and his way of living are all threatened and likely to be ruined. But if there is any reasonable doubt then the case needs to be treated with extra care. You can't throw the life of an athlete away just because you want to. There is PLENTY of reasonable doubt in Landis' case.
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| Crommy |
Posted on 19-10-2007 07:52
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He's still guilty - there is no way that non-natural testosterone can occur in a test other than its there - it is absolutely nothing like the death penalty, and quite frankly, the evidence points that he doped. Simple as that.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 19-10-2007 08:29
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issoisso wrote:
anyway, this has gotten off the point. my point being that his average wattage - which, given that the total time during which they exerted their respective efforts is similar, can be compared at face value - is lower than Voigt's, and that as such, going by the same logic as the posts before, Voigt and the others in the break would have to be doped.
which is a ridiculous assumption if it's based just on this comparison Wattage on the flat only makes sense if it's coming from the numbers provided by the SRM system (power registered in the crankset), otherwise you can't estimate it, the wind resistance is the main strength to fight against, and measuring it is almost impossible (depends of the dragging by other escaped riders, of the Cx of the rider, etc.), whereas in the mountains you can evaluate it.
Then something else, I'm not sure how much Voigt and Landis wieghed in 2006, but 300 W for a 80 kg Voigt is not half as impressive as 283 for a 65 kg Landis... |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 19-10-2007 08:30
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Crommy wrote:
He's still guilty - there is no way that non-natural testosterone can occur in a test other than its there - it is absolutely nothing like the death penalty, and quite frankly, the evidence points that he doped. Simple as that. I suggest death penalty for Landis, since his hardcore fans say it's the same as suspending him.  8) |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 19-10-2007 08:42
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Aquarius wrote:
Then something else, I'm not sure how much Voigt and Landis wieghed in 2006, but 300 W for a 80 kg Voigt is not half as impressive as 283 for a 65 kg Landis...
as I said, who got me the data specifically stated "adjusted for weight"
Levi4life wrote:
The death penalty is only handed down when the jury is 100 % certain of the guilt of the accused.
the hundreds of thousands of people accused based solely on the results of a polygraph test (whose accuracy is 52%. about the same as flipping a coin) beg to differ
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Crommy |
Posted on 19-10-2007 17:18
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Aquarius wrote:
Crommy wrote:
He's still guilty - there is no way that non-natural testosterone can occur in a test other than its there - it is absolutely nothing like the death penalty, and quite frankly, the evidence points that he doped. Simple as that. I suggest death penalty for Landis, since his hardcore fans say it's the same as suspending him. 8)
Very well manoeuvred there - I like it
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