Ian Butler wrote:
I still believe that cycling is quite a clean sport. But I'm also still convinced that you can't win TDF on tapwater alone. The problem is, some products they call doping, others not. Of course, I'm not an expert in the field of illegal substances in sports, but that's just my opinion.
There's a defined list of products (I have it, in French language though, it's from 2011 too, but still), it's up to people to check what they take and not take anything that's on that list. What's the problem ?
Not a problem, I meant the problem is just in de defining of doping. Because every rider is different, and some have problems (like Bouyer you mentioned). So actually they should make an individual list for every rider, but then the whole system becomes a much greater risk for cheating illnesses etc.
Actually, doping is a stupid thing, but the worst is that some riders do it and others not. If none would do it, great. If everyone would do it, okay, not the best solution, but at least the competition's fair, you understand what I'm saying? Not that I want every rider to use doping.
Anything above the allowed amount would be doping, if you're following the rules. You get my point, or is it not that clear? I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying that if hypothetically they could use 10g of product X, because of a cold or something, any amount up to 10g is not considered doping, but anything from 11g is. I hope you do get my point, because it's much more difficult explaining something so abstract in another language. So excuse me if this is Chinese to you (also not my native tongue, btw )
No, you're very clear, but it doesn't make any sense. I repeat, voluntarily taking any banned substance to get a performance boost is D-O-P-I-N-G. Whether enough to get caught or not is irrelevant.
Or is it not doping to have a blood transfussion if you do it right and it goes under the blood passport radar?
I wasn't really talking about blood transfussions, more about small products such as nose drops, who can become doping if you use them too much. Wasn't talking about steak either, or something.
Energy gels give you a performance boost, btw. Why isn't that doping? Because it's allowed.
There is a defined notion of what should be banned, which is as follows:
“A substance shall be considered for inclusion on the Prohibited List if the substance is a masking agent or meets two of the following three criteria: (1) it has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance; (2) it represents a potential or actual health risk; or (3) it is contrary to the spirit of sport. None of the three criteria alone is a sufficient basis for adding a substance to the Prohibited List.
Energy gels are not considered contrary to the spirit of the sport. Overdosing on nose drops is.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182]Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
mb2612 wrote:
There is a defined notion of what should be banned, which is as follows:
“A substance shall be considered for inclusion on the Prohibited List if the substance is a masking agent or meets two of the following three criteria: (1) it has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance; (2) it represents a potential or actual health risk; or (3) it is contrary to the spirit of sport. None of the three criteria alone is a sufficient basis for adding a substance to the Prohibited List.
Energy gels are not considered contrary to the spirit of the sport. Overdosing on nose drops is.
Wow, thanks a lot, I've never seen this definition before. It's interesting.
The system still isn't perfect, but I think cycling is getting much better, doping-wise.
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
See, there you go. Every rider should be considered personally. If you'd be a pro rider, you should be allowed that medication (luckily, men has made a medicine against diabetic! We can already be thankful for that, some things more important than cycling). But there would be too many frauds, I think. All of a sudden, the whole peleton would have all these illnesses, very unhealthy, imo
Another example would be Chris Boardman. He suffered from Osteoporosis which meant he needed hormone replacement therapy, which unfortunately required him to take Testosterone injections, which would have got him banned.
So he chose to finish his cycling career whilst in severe pain from the condition until he retired and then got the proper treatment to help him
Ian Butler wrote:
If everyone would do it, okay, not the best solution, but at least the competition's fair, you understand what I'm saying? Not that I want every rider to use doping.
No, no, no, 100x no.
Not all riders react the same to doping products. Some get a much greater benefit from a dose of X, whereas other will show little reaction to it, but will benefit much more from product Y. Like medicines.
sutty68 wrote:
Another example would be Chris Boardman. He suffered from Osteoporosis which meant he needed hormone replacement therapy, which unfortunately required him to take Testosterone injections, which would have got him banned.
So he chose to finish his cycling career whilst in severe pain from the condition until he retired and then got the proper treatment to help him
Not implying anything, but osteoporosis rhymes with corticosteroids...
Even though you can get it naturally, that's uncommon, especially for men in their 30's. It's quite frequent among people who use excessive amounts of corticosteroids. But I believe in coincidences.
sutty68 wrote:
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
sutty68 wrote:
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
sutty68 wrote:
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
No, I've got diabetic type 1 myself, and I've been on a decent level both in cycling and biathlon (as a junior). Taking the needed medication is fully allowed, though, you'll need a couple of "medical certificates" from doctor(s). But if you're a diabetic, you're allowed to take insulin to "eliminate" your drawback, because it doesn't give your performance an abnormal boost, but the medications takes you to the level you would have been at if you weren't sick. The same goes for those with asthma. They're allowed to take medications to get rid of their drawback, but they're not allowed to take more than needed, then it's doping. But you're fully allowed to eliminate your drawback of a chronic disease.
sutty68 wrote:
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
I have type 1 and have had it for 37 years, but have managed to live as near a normal life as possible
And i thought i am one of the old ones
Good to hear your ilness is not normal-life stopping, i have big problems with my back and it would be also bad to ride the bike professional with it without some painkillers.
Feketelaszlo wrote:
But talking about the 90% - there are many in the peloton who don't need any doping, what for? I think in sprints these things won't help - the finish is decided by skill, speed and positioning.
Yeah, why dope to still be there, why dope to be fresher, why dope to be more agressive, or more relaxed, why dope to be faster ? Really, no point in doping for sprinters.
Feketelaszlo wrote:Lead-out men, helpers and bottle-carriers don't have to use it either, it wouldn't affect their performance too much.
Yeah, my 81 years old Grand-ma might sign with Team Sky next year, beware, she'll be launching Cavendish sprints. I should just check out whether she can ride a bike, but as physical condition doesn't matter, why not ?
Irony aside, the lead out guys must 1) be there 2) ride fast 3) several times. Doping wouldn't help ? Come on...
Feketelaszlo wrote:Doping matters in big tours and races where toughness and strength is important.
Why are amateurs caught then ? Why are lesser riders caught then ? Why are athletes cheating in other sports ? Why is the human being a natural-born cheating-prone creature ?
Doping medicines are not miracles - they won't make you superman. Every rider knows, that when they take something prohibited in their body they take risks. They risk their health, recognition, results, career. As you said, the doping only improves their physical condition, from 100% to around 105-110%. Though it also matters for sprinters and for everybody else, there are too many other important factors - it's not worth risking, because it wouldn't help them too much (an average sprinter won't beat Cavendish just because he took some EPO or other stuff), maybe it wouldn't help anyhow if they have a bad day. But for those racing for overall wins it means a lot.
Amateurs? Amateurs are always stupid and inexperienced - look at the case of Riccó for example. The young always want great results fast. I still believe that the top-riders are doping, but they do it wisely (with the help of professional doctors!) and they try to not overdose themselves, so they won't test positively - nowadays it's nearly impossible to win a big race without those stuffs. But until they go from 100% to only 102-103%, it's 'ok'. You can't totally kill doping, but you can reduce how many riders use it.
Edited by Feketelaszlo on 29-05-2012 13:00
sutty68 wrote:
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
I have type 1 and have had it for 37 years, but have managed to live as near a normal life as possible
And i thought i am one of the old ones
Good to hear your ilness is not normal-life stopping, i have big problems with my back and it would be also bad to ride the bike professional with it without some painkillers.
sutty68 wrote:
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
I have type 1 and have had it for 37 years, but have managed to live as near a normal life as possible
And i thought i am one of the old ones
Good to hear your ilness is not normal-life stopping, i have big problems with my back and it would be also bad to ride the bike professional with it without some painkillers.
Old at 28, you have to be kidding me
Every morning when i wake up at 5.40 am, i think something like "Who beated me yesterday that i have so much pain?" You say it will become even worse?
sutty68 wrote:
I am a Diabetic, which is something i could not avoid from getting, its one of them things i have to live with
But unfortunately certain medicines i have to take for the condition, would be on the banned list of substances, which would have stopped me from competing at the highest level had i have been that good
I have type 1 and have had it for 37 years, but have managed to live as near a normal life as possible
And i thought i am one of the old ones
Good to hear your ilness is not normal-life stopping, i have big problems with my back and it would be also bad to ride the bike professional with it without some painkillers.
Old at 28, you have to be kidding me
Every morning when i wake up at 5.40 am, i think something like "Who beated me yesterday that i have so much pain?" You say it will become even worse?
Padrnos? I know he was in Us dopstal,but he was never found guilty, or was he? He was investigated in 2001 and arrested because of that in San Remo, but he was later cleared of all charges iirc.
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