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World Championships Discussion
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| Kami |
Posted on 23-02-2011 19:49
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Classics Specialist
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rjc_43 wrote:
Too many cooks spoil the broth/food.
Too many race winning options means you don't win. Simple.
Agree, but that's where i can't follow. The best choice got left out for a fucked up reason.
And please don't call me moaning. I would still have this discussion, even if Ricco wasn't my rider.
Edited by Kami on 23-02-2011 19:51
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 19:53
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Team Leader
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Kami wrote:
rjc_43 wrote:
Too many cooks spoil the broth/food.
Too many race winning options means you don't win. Simple.
Agree, but that's where i can't follow. The best choice got left out for a fucked up reason.
And please don't call me moaning.
But you are moaning.
Cunego is the best choice. Sella is a back up choice. Pozzovivo another good one. And Ginanni is the better puncheur. With the choices we've made, we have 3 strong leaders/co-leaders, without being a massive favourite, meaning that we'll get a 40km to go attack from someone like Pozzo or Sella. And then a final attack by Ginanni. A great plan.
Otherwise you get the Frank Schleck approach, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, attack, oh! it's a downhill. Shit, I lost that race as well! |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:01
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Team Leader
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rjc, are you claiming having a favourite is a bad thing.
Seriously?
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:04
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I'm, well, no, but, well, erm, you see, erm, it's like, erm.
Yes. |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:05
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Team Manager
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Does Schleck win all races? No, he often fails.
Are Schumacher and Ginanni dominating the CT hills? Nope.
Did Valverde win loads of CT hilly races last year? Nope
Theres merit in the argument, certainly - but ultimately in a top level race, you should have more chance of winning or being up there with the race favourite.
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| SotD |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:08
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World Champion
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I believe that is a modified truth. I can't remember any team where it has been a bad move to have the best possible selection. Yes the leader may attack later, yes the helpers are probably having shit results, but I don't think I have seen any great leader being affected from having a too strong lineup of teammates.
I guess my Samuel Sánches and Diego Ulissi is a good example of how it could work. Sammy Sanchez is the equivalent to Ricco while Ulissi is to Ginanni...
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:10
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SotD wrote:
I guess my Samuel Sánches and Diego Ulissi is a good example of how it could work. Sammy Sanchez is the equivalent to Ricco while Ulissi is to Ginanni...
Except Sanchez and Ulissi are treated as underdogs anyway - I would expect both Ginanni and Ricco to have been listed amongst the top favourites - and having more than 1 of that sort of rider in a race rarely works out.
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| Ad Bot |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:12
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Ricco just wasn't an option.
To cover the "hilly with mountains option" I sorted by hill. Ginanni wins.
To cover the "mountainous with hills option" I sorted by mountain. Sella wins.
That is my selection. The rest? By who would provide best support, who had earnt it, and who wasn't a complete anti-Wiggle rider. Ricco is my rival, he's also a horrible excuse of a human being. But that's by the by. |
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| SotD |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:13
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Why? And do you have any thing to backup that indication?
Because I haven't seen it... Not anything I remember anyway. It all seems a bit random from one race to another, but I certainly haven't noticed that having a strong team is a bad thing. Pellizotti performs right now in America. Castaño performed in the Giro with Ardila and so on. I don't know which examples to use, because I simply don't see any previous ones on that level.
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| Kami |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:17
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Classics Specialist
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rjc_43 wrote:
Ricco just wasn't an option.
To cover the "hilly with mountains option" I sorted by hill. Ginanni wins.
To cover the "mountainous with hills option" I sorted by mountain. Sella wins.
That is my selection. The rest? By who would provide best support, who had earnt it, and who wasn't a complete anti-Wiggle rider. Ricco is my rival, he's also a horrible excuse of a human being. But that's by the by.
I can understand your MO and HI choices, but Ricco is the best combination of both, and the most likely rider to be able to challenge Schleck and Valverde.
At the fat part: I've said my opinion about the human being part, but why is Ricco a rival to you?
If you mean CT races, then Ginanni is just as big of a rival.
If you mean next year's PT, then Sella is also a rival, so i can't quite follow on this point.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:19
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Team Manager
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SotD wrote:
Why? And do you have any thing to backup that indication?
Because I haven't seen it... Not anything I remember anyway. It all seems a bit random from one race to another, but I certainly haven't noticed that having a strong team is a bad thing. Pellizotti performs right now in America. Castaño performed in the Giro with Ardila and so on. I don't know which examples to use, because I simply don't see any previous ones on that level.
Once again, Ardila and Castano is a poor example, neither were amongst the race favourites. And Pellizotti would likely be doing the same in America with a weak support team.
But it is very rare that a team with multiple very strong riders, will have more than one of those seriously try to win the race. Usually one attacks, and the other sits back - unless there are enough attack waves that lead to the AI sending more riders from a team forwards.
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And kami. Look at the CT rankings, you cant seriously claim that Ginanni has been more of a rival to Wiggle than Ricco  And you should know, rjc doesnt bother with mountains much, so how does Sella become a 'rival'. Besides, next season isnt this season.
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:21
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Team Leader
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Ricco has won races over Ponzi. Ginanni hasn't, in effect, taken any points away from Wiggle. He's a rider more suited to Pro Tour than CT, whereas Ricco rapes me. He's stopped me winning the CT. Or he's certainly one of the reasons.
And if we're going on "it's not real life aspects", hey, you play the game how you see fit, I play it how I see fit. Why do I have Ignatiev? Because he's my favourite rider, that's why. Not because he'll win races (though that is an added bonus).
Likewise I don't buy riders I don't like. Hence why Auber doesn't have a smidge of Spanish in it, I dislike Spanish riders.
EDIT: And besides, who say's I won't have Cunego next season? (i won't, but who says I won't?  )
Edited by rjc_43 on 23-02-2011 20:22
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| SotD |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:24
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But it is very rare that a team with multiple very strong riders, will have more than one of those seriously try to win the race. Usually one attacks, and the other sits back - unless there are enough attack waves that lead to the AI sending more riders from a team forwards.
But how is that bad? Isn't that exactly the same that will happen no matter how strong your riders are? The AI picks the one best suited and then it doesn't really matter how good the next riders is, unless he moves into an attack, in which case the stronger the better...
So I really don't see the difference between having Ricco leader and Ginanni as the 2nd best, and Ginanni being leader with eg. Emanuelle Sella as the 2nd best.
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:24
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Team Leader
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rjc_43 wrote:
Ricco just wasn't an option.
To cover the "hilly with mountains option" I sorted by hill. Ginanni wins.
To cover the "mountainous with hills option" I sorted by mountain. Sella wins.
Thats not how it works and you know it, it's done on a ratio, and any ratio between 0.15 and 0.8 makes Ricco favourite
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:25
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Team Manager
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SotD wrote:
So I really don't see the difference between having Ricco leader and Ginanni as the 2nd best, and Ginanni being leader with eg. Emanuelle Sella as the 2nd best.
Scenario 2 there is immediately much better for the Vespa and Lipton managers. Thats the difference.
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:26
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And any ratio between 0.0 and 1.0 makes Ricco a complete and utter dick.
And clearly I wasn't the only one who thought so, as the Italian team was picked by more than me. And others had 3 chances to pick Ricco over a reduced number of riders in each choice. Yet he still didn't get picked. |
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| SotD |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:29
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SportingNonsense wrote:
SotD wrote:
So I really don't see the difference between having Ricco leader and Ginanni as the 2nd best, and Ginanni being leader with eg. Emanuelle Sella as the 2nd best.
Scenario 2 there is immediately much better for the Vespa and Lipton managers. Thats the difference.
True but that wasn't what the question was about. I am aware why some people doesn't want to pick Ricco, I have already wrote that, but I can't see why scenario 2 is better than scenario 1 in terms of how the race progress.
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:32
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Team Leader
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rjc_43 wrote:
And any ratio between 0.0 and 1.0 makes Ricco a complete and utter dick.
And clearly I wasn't the only one who thought so, as the Italian team was picked by more than me. And others had 3 chances to pick Ricco over a reduced number of riders in each choice. Yet he still didn't get picked.
and as the Spanish selector I also wouldn't have picked Ricco.
Valverde is itching for back to back victories
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:35
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Grand Tour Champion
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The whole point of having managers in the management game is that it isn't always making a robotic choice, but emotion and feeling coming into the game. Which is a very good thing.
Like Ricco not being chosen because, in the eloquent words of rjc any ratio between 0.0 and 1.0 makes Ricco a complete and utter dick .
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 23-02-2011 20:54
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Tour de France Champion
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Agree with Crommy. It's a part of the game, it's a part of real-life, complain and get over it |
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