issoisso wrote: It's funny to read what this guy writes. He's just like Phil Ligget: knows barely anything about the sport, constantly says outlandish things that have no basis in reality and has his head far, faaaaar up Lance's ass
Nice to have you on the forum Phil. You're extremely quotable
(What else can I say about a guy who makes awful awful errors in hisPRE-WRITTEN COMMENTARY IN PUBLISHED CYCLING DVDs. Seriously, if someone makes gross errors in something that isn't thought up and said in the spur of the moment, that's a whole new level of awful)
Jesus Christ xD Don't know this guy, but he sounds completely incompetent
My favorite from a DVD:
1993 Giro d'Italia DVD. Stage 1. Davide Cassani attacks. The graphic at the bottom reads "Davide Cassani. 1991 Milano - Torino winner"
Liggett: "This young man won the great classic Milano - San Remo back in 1990" (paraphrased)
My favorite not from a DVD:
Liggett with an excited, grandiose tone to his voice: "Alex, how doe it feel to be the FIRST american to win a Tour de France stage??"
Alex Stieda: "It feels great to be the first CANADIAN to win a stage, thanks"
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
doddy13 wrote:
tee-hee Army fanboy-ism.
Don't worry isso will be visitng after work tonight, i've alerted him.
Anyway, Contador WILL win the tour next year, he's the best individual rider, his team was against him this year, and still won. To say there was teamwork, well i've never laughed so much on a cycling thread before. I hate Contador, but i felt very sorry for him this July, and saying there was teamwork in that Astana team just laughable,.
And Schleck had team support and came second, why? Because he couldn't follow Contador's attacks. Could he follow Lance's yep. Could Lance follow Andy's nope, heck he couldn't follow Wiggins' attacks, and he wasn't very confident.
So, go watch some more Ligget commentary and go report back your findings. Meanwhile like Mike says, stick around next July, should be a blast.
Let me give you a hypothetical situation... let's say Cancellara wins the opening prologue and manages to keep the maillot jeune until the Alps. Now let's say that Contador sees that Saxobank is weakened by defending the Yellow Jersey all week and attacks and gets Yellow on Stage 8. Let's say he holds it until the Pyrennes. Now it's Astana's turn to be tired from protecting him.... Meanwhile, Radio Shack has been keeping the pressure on - forcing the pace, but not trying to blow the race open.
Now we're on to Stage 16 and Radio Shack really hits the race now - attack after attack up the Col de Peyresourde, up the Col d'Aspin, and up to the Col du Tourmalet... the whole time, Astana is shedding it's riders until it's just Contador and Vinokourov near the top of Tourmalet with the Col d'Aubisque still to go. The pressure has been so unrelenting that Vinokourov is about to crack. All of a sudden Leipheimer makes a serious attack at the summit and Frank Schleck joins him. What does Contador do? Does he cover the attack or does he stay in the peloton and shadow Andy and Lance?
If he covers the attack, Leipheimer sacrifices himself and runs Contador into the ground on Col d'Aubisque - leavng the way open for Armstrong (protected by Kloden) and Schleck to ride past him.
If he shadows Armstrong, then Leipheimer runs away from the peloton (controlled by Radio Shack), breaks Frank, and takes yellow in Pau.
You see why teamwork is so important? Contador can't win the Tour unless his team can control the peloton. Nobody can.
issoisso wrote: It's funny to read what this guy writes. He's just like Phil Ligget: knows barely anything about the sport, constantly says outlandish things that have no basis in reality and has his head far, faaaaar up Lance's ass
Nice to have you on the forum Phil. You're extremely quotable
(What else can I say about a guy who makes awful awful errors in hisPRE-WRITTEN COMMENTARY IN PUBLISHED CYCLING DVDs. Seriously, if someone makes gross errors in something that isn't thought up and said in the spur of the moment, that's a whole new level of awful)
Jesus Christ xD Don't know this guy, but he sounds completely incompetent
My favorite from a DVD:
1993 Giro d'Italia DVD. Stage 1. Davide Cassani attacks. The graphic at the bottom reads "Davide Cassani. 1991 Milano - Torino winner"
Liggett: "This young man won the great classic Milano - San Remo back in 1990" (paraphrased)
My favorite not from a DVD:
Liggett with an excited, grandiose tone to his voice: "Alex, how doe it feel to be the FIRST american to win a Tour de France stage??"
Alex Stieda: "It feels great to be the first CANADIAN to win a stage, thanks"
Well, let's keep in mind that Leggett isreporting 3 hours a day for 21 days during a Grand Tour. That's a lot of words - there's bound to be one or two statements in there that nitpickers and hair-splitters can go back and dig up and quote of context to make him look bad.
You're missing the big picture - Leggett knows the races, he knows the riders, he's lived the history. If all you can see is his missteps then you're missing the panorama he paints each and every Tour. I kind of pity you that.
Edited by Cordelier on 03-11-2009 19:46
Cordelier wrote:
Let me give you a hypothetical situation... let's say Cancellara wins the opening prologue and manages to keep the maillot jeune until the Alps.
I'd say that's far more than just hypothetical. It'd say it's quite likely
Cordelier wrote:
Now let's say that Contador sees that Saxobank is weakened by defending the Yellow Jersey all week and attacks and gets Yellow on Stage 8. Let's say he holds it until the Pyrennes. Now it's Astana's turn to be tired from protecting him.... Meanwhile, Radio Shack has been keeping the pressure on - forcing the pace, but not trying to blow the race open.
First faulty assumption: that Astana will want to keep the jersey. If their goal is final victory and not to just spend few days in yellow, they won't.
Cordelier wrote:
Now we're on to Stage 16 and Radio Shack really hits the race now - attack after attack up the Col de Peyresourde, up the Col d'Aspin, and up to the Col du Tourmalet... the whole time, Astana is shedding it's riders until it's just Contador and Vinokourov near the top of Tourmalet with the Col d'Aubisque still to go. The pressure has been so unrelenting that Vinokourov is about to crack. All of a sudden Leipheimer makes a serious attack at the summit and Frank Schleck joins him. What does Contador do? Does he cover the attack or does he stay in the peloton and shadow Andy and Lance?
He obviously covers the attack. Forcing Andy and Lance to cover him. Nobody loses. Everyone loses the same energy from that attack. Except for Leipheimer who loses more than the others. End result: Radioshack's slightly weaker, unless there's someone who doesn't have the legs or is dumb enough not to follow.
Cordelier wrote:
If he covers the attack, Leipheimer sacrifices himself and runs Contador into the ground on Col d'Aubisque - leavng the way open for Armstrong (protected by Kloden) and Schleck to ride past him.
So, if Contador follows Leipheimer and Armstrong and Schleck also cover, magically Contador is "run into the ground" by the effort but the other two aren't? Faulty assumption number 2
Cordelier wrote:
If he shadows Armstrong, then Leipheimer runs away from the peloton (controlled by Radio Shack), breaks Frank, and takes yellow in Pau.
"Leipheimer breaks Frank". Because it's just that easy, as everyone knows . "I rolled d6 Frank. You're broken. sorry".
Faulty assumption number 3
Cordelier wrote:
Contador can't win the Tour unless his team can control the peloton. Nobody can.
Pantani. LeMond. Fignon. Roche. Delgado. Hinault. Thevenet. Zoetemelk. etc.
Faulty assumption number 5 (or 4 for those of you who are counting )
Also, you might want to research the difference between "its" and "it's"
Usually I wouldn't mention it, but since english seems to be your first language.....
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Cordelier wrote:
You see why teamwork is so important? Contador can't win the Tour unless his team can control the peloton. Nobody can.
It isn't absolutely necessary to be in the team which controls the peloton to win the Tour. Of course it helps, but if you have a strong team, you don't need to control the bunch. You can leave that role to another team. Astana (or whatever they'll be called next year) might do that. They might leave the control to RadioShack and Saxo, as AC just needs a couple of good climbers to help him in the mountains. Of course once he is the leader (assuming that at some point he'll be, which is very very likely), he'd need to control the pace, but Astana, not having such a great team like RS or SB, is still a decent team.
You're also assuming that Saxo Bank and RadioShack will attack from a long distance. I hardly see Saxo Bank doing that (I'd love it though), and not even talk about RadioShack.
aaffins wrote:
I dont think Armstrong has the ability to win the Tour at this point. That said, I think it will make things a lot more interesting to have such a strong team with such a crappy leader, so I'm looking forward to it.
Are you serious??
I fully acknowledge Armstrong is nowhere near where he was in his prime, but I'd hardly classify him as "crappy" - he did finish third in the Tour last year, and that's without the benefit of being team leader. There were plenty of other contenders out there who had their teams centred around them who didn't finish anywhere near the podium.
So while he may not be capable of single-handedly blowing the race apart next year like he did so many times in the past, he's certainly going to be a significant force to be reckoned with - he's a strong leader on a strong (and probably the strongest) team.
You put the likes of Armstrong and Leipheimer and Klöden under the control of a genius like Bruyneel, and I guarantee things are going to happen. The only way I can see Radio Shack not winning next year is if Contador gets signed by Caisse d'Epargne... and even then, it could go either way.
I think he's serious and I completely agree. This is currently my favorites list for the tour next year:
1. Contador
2. A. Schleck
3. Valverde (if he can ride)
4. Evans (ditto)
5. Menchov
6. Levi
7. Lance
8. Basso
9, 10, etc.: Various unproven (at the tdf level) riders, VDB, Gesink, etc.
Lance isn't that good, especially not now, and I'll always argue he was highly overrated as an actual rider during his 7-gt wins. Lets just say when in a mountain stage you have 6 helpers w/ you, one of you challengers has 5 w/ you, and everyone else is on your own, its not that hard to win 7 in a row when that other challenger w/ help is slightly worse than you.
Edit: Two notes, first Levi would be 5th if it weren't for the fact he's working for Lance, and two, I know that Wiggo isn't on the list. If he rides well as a GT rider early in the year he moves into the 5-6 spot on the list. I'm just not completely sure yet...
How do you explain Lance kicking ass in the mountain time trials? No support on those stages
doddy13 wrote:
Phill Ligget is a lance armstrong super-fan. Lance was in effect the team leader this year, and even then he can't do it.
He will never win the tour again, he will barely make top 5 next year IMO. Contador will win the TDF 2010, simply because he is the best rider today, he had 0 support this year, and won.
oh, and Valverde having a bad day? I'll get Isso to explain all about that.
I agree with you but 0 support? Why do people have to talk in extremes? I guess he rode the TTT by himself.
Edited by ABridgeTooFar on 03-11-2009 20:40
doddy13 wrote:
Phill Ligget is a lance armstrong super-fan. Lance was in effect the team leader this year, and even then he can't do it.
He will never win the tour again, he will barely make top 5 next year IMO. Contador will win the TDF 2010, simply because he is the best rider today, he had 0 support this year, and won.
oh, and Valverde having a bad day? I'll get Isso to explain all about that.
I agree with you but 0 support? Why do people have to talk in extremes? I guess he rode the TTT by himself.
He had no choice, did Lance want to win with Astana? Yes. He had to ride the TTT too. You got the feeling that Alberto had maybe 1 ally on the team throughout the tour, it occasionally sounded like Bruyneel was against him too.
That doesn't seem right to me. Your DS should be behind whoevers best at the ONE moment, don't assume Lance can win 'cause he's won 7 before.
As i said, i'm a contador hater, but i hated the treatment with him at the tour.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
doddy13 wrote:
Pcm.daily 101 - Never enter an argument about cycling with isso. He's usually right
True but that is not the problem. The problem is that he usually does not admit it when he is wrong. There are no gray areas with him. It is either black or white in his world.
Ligget's commentary is really embarassingly bad at times. Watching the Tour de France 2007 DVD is so irritating with Ligget often getting the overall contenders mixed up and constantly getting Valverde's first name wrong (e.g Alessandro Valverde, Alexandre Valverde, Alefandro Valverde)
One of the funniest things I've heard him say was shortly after Dessel's victory on the Bonette stage in the 2008 tour. A few seconds had past since he'd crossed the line, but Ligget still exclaimed "he hasn't finished yet!"
ANFreeman wrote:
It's funny how much this thread has digressed from the original topic...
But yeah, I think it's safe to say that the RadioShack team will be able to follow Contador, the Schlecks and any other main contenders, but the chance of them getting away is pretty unlikely. They'll win the TTT if there is one next year (I think it's safe to assume there will be, but I remember my dad saying something about there not bein' a TT. I ignored him, as ,like Armstrong, he's over the hill and perhaps a little deluded...) and, even if Contador or Schlecks have a poor team, they won't make enough time in order to feel safe in the mountains, where they'll be quite unlikely to make any time.
So the 2 best climbers in the Tour are unlikely to gain any time in the mountains? Right....
And theres no TTT
Oh no, bad wording on my part. What I meant was that the time Lance could make in a TTT, even if Contador or the Schleck's teams weren't able to do a good time in the TTT, the advantage wouldn't be enough to cover the deficit in the mountains. Yeah, sorry for the bad wording. Kind of irrelevant, anyway, seeing as theres no TTT. Turns out my dad was right... Oh dear...
doddy13 wrote:
Pcm.daily 101 - Never enter an argument about cycling with isso. He's usually right
True but that is not the problem. The problem is that he usually does not admit it when he is wrong. There are no gray areas with him. It is either black or white in his world.
how does that apply?
isso isn't debating philosophy or something, he's talking about things that really are black or white...
ABridgeTooFar wrote:
It is either black or white in his world.
That's not true!
There are also some asians. They mostly do the laundry.
Edited by issoisso on 03-11-2009 23:29
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Cordelier wrote:
Well, let's keep in mind that Leggett isreporting 3 hours a day for 21 days during a Grand Tour. That's a lot of words - there's bound to be one or two statements in there that nitpickers and hair-splitters can go back and dig up and quote of context to make him look bad.
You're missing the big picture - Leggett knows the races, he knows the riders, he's lived the history. If all you can see is his missteps then you're missing the panorama he paints each and every Tour. I kind of pity you that.
Either you didn't actually read what I wrote, or you're just pretending I was referring the live broadcasts for the sake of having something to write.
Go back and read what you quoted. Read it carefully this time
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
issoisso wrote:
First faulty assumption: that Astana will want to keep the jersey. If their goal is final victory and not to just spend few days in yellow, they won't.
You've obviously never dealt with Nicolai Proskoerin. I don't know who the new Directeur Sportif for Astana will be, but odds are that he won't be Bruyneel's league, and even Bruyneel couldn't stop Proskoerin's meddling. I'm betting the new Astana Directeur will be some toady who will bend over backwards to please Proskoerin and Astana's "directeur sportif on the road", Vinokourov.
issoisso wrote: He obviously covers the attack. Forcing Andy and Lance to cover him. Nobody loses. Everyone loses the same energy from that attack. Except for Leipheimer who loses more than the others. End result: Radioshack's slightly weaker, unless there's someone who doesn't have the legs or is dumb enough not to follow.
Radio Shack has enough guns to attack and keep attacking, though - maybe Contador brings back Leipheimer's attack - but what about when Kloden attacks? And if he brings back that one, what will he do when Armstrong attacks? As good as Contador is, he's only one man.
issoisso wrote:So, if Contador follows Leipheimer and Armstrong and Schleck also cover, magically Contador is "run into the ground" by the effort but the other two aren't? Faulty assumption number 2
Who said Armstrong will cover? If Contador covers the early attack, Armstrong can just stay at the front of the peloton while Leipheimer sacrifices himself to drive Contodor into the ground. Then Armstrong attacks on the final climb with his fresh legs.
issoisso wrote:"Leipheimer breaks Frank". Because it's just that easy, as everyone knows . "I rolled d6 Frank. You're broken. sorry".
Faulty assumption number 3
Having Frank join the attack would just be a bonus - the real target would be Contador.
issoisso wrote:Pantani. LeMond. Fignon. Roche. Delgado. Hinault. Thevenet. Zoetemelk. etc.
Faulty assumption number 5 (or 4 for those of you who are counting )
Well, let's see... Pantani is an exception because of the turmoil in the 1998 Tour turned everything upside down and he profited from that.
For 2 of the three years LeMond won (86,89,90), he also won the best team competition (La Vie Claire & Team Z)
Fignon won twice (83, 84), and on one of those he also won the best team competition (Renault-Elf)
Similarly, the man who bridged them both, Hinault, won 2 team competitions in his 5 wins (Renault-Gitane & La Vie Claire)
So I'd hardly classify the Renault and La Vie Claire teams of the late 70's to mid-80's as not dominating, would you?
issoisso wrote:Also, you might want to research the difference between "its" and "it's"
Usually I wouldn't mention it, but since english seems to be your first language.....
Like I said, nitpicking hairsplitters.
Your anal retentiveness must really impress the girls, Isso.
Cordelier wrote:
You see why teamwork is so important? Contador can't win the Tour unless his team can control the peloton. Nobody can.
It isn't absolutely necessary to be in the team which controls the peloton to win the Tour. Of course it helps, but if you have a strong team, you don't need to control the bunch. You can leave that role to another team. Astana (or whatever they'll be called next year) might do that. They might leave the control to RadioShack and Saxo, as AC just needs a couple of good climbers to help him in the mountains. Of course once he is the leader (assuming that at some point he'll be, which is very very likely), he'd need to control the pace, but Astana, not having such a great team like RS or SB, is still a decent team.
You're also assuming that Saxo Bank and RadioShack will attack from a long distance. I hardly see Saxo Bank doing that (I'd love it though), and not even talk about RadioShack.
Astana is still a decent team?? Compared to whom? As far as I can tell, they've got Contador and they've got an over-the-hill doper with an over-inflated ego.... all supported by a bunch of anonymous Kazakhs.
doddy13 wrote:
Phill Ligget is a lance armstrong super-fan. Lance was in effect the team leader this year, and even then he can't do it.
He will never win the tour again, he will barely make top 5 next year IMO. Contador will win the TDF 2010, simply because he is the best rider today, he had 0 support this year, and won.
oh, and Valverde having a bad day? I'll get Isso to explain all about that.
I agree with you but 0 support? Why do people have to talk in extremes? I guess he rode the TTT by himself.
He had no choice, did Lance want to win with Astana? Yes. He had to ride the TTT too. You got the feeling that Alberto had maybe 1 ally on the team throughout the tour, it occasionally sounded like Bruyneel was against him too.
That doesn't seem right to me. Your DS should be behind whoevers best at the ONE moment, don't assume Lance can win 'cause he's won 7 before.
As i said, i'm a contador hater, but i hated the treatment with him at the tour.
Astana busted their asses for him... if anyone wasn't a team player, it was Contador on Arcalis.
Cordelier wrote:
Astana busted their asses for him... if anyone wasn't a team player, it was Contador on Arcalis.
Would you like to explain this, would you have rather seen him protecting Lance, as the plan went?
This time, try to use own opinions and not those of a geriatric commentator, ok?
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
