chrica04 wrote:
I can't believe you all still think Lance is a doper. I guess since most good Europeans get caught, Lance must be doping. The guy has been tested more than anyone.....never caught.
There are only reliable tests for about 20% types of EPO... Everyone in the peleton can dope if they do it properly and pay enough money to do it. Lance had EPO in several tests during the 1999(?) tour.
I am sure he doped back then. I just hope he isn't stupid enough to dope now...
Edited by ponka00 on 07-07-2009 19:20
ponka00 wrote:
There are only reliable tests for about 20% types of EPO... Everyone in the peleton can dope if they do it properly and pay enough money to do it. Lance had EPO in several tests during the 1999(?) tour.
I am sure he doped back then. I just hope he isn't stupid enough to dope now...
Allow me. May I? Thank you.
chrica04 wrote:
I can't believe you all still think Lance is a doper. I guess since most good Europeans get caught, Lance must be doping. The guy has been tested more than anyone.....never caught.
Let's see...
First there's the cancer that methastasized waaay too fast for it to be possible in anyone not taking HGH.
There's also the fact that the cancer should've been picked up much, much earlier than it was because in the early stages of testicular cancer, certain markers show up in doping tests and are so obvious they are impossible to miss.....unless you're using masking agents to conceal drug use.
In which case those markers are masked as well. In his case, they were masked.
Then there's Betsy Andreu testifying that she and Frankie Andreu (Lance's long term friend and teammate of many tours) were there in the room when Lance told his oncologist "Yes, I took corticosteroids, EPO, HGH, testosterone, cortisone(...)", but I guess she's lying, huh? After all, who wouldn't throw away her and her husband's career, friendships and basically destroy their lives just for 5 minutes of "fame" in specialized cycling media ?
There's an e-mail lance sent frankie andreu in december 2003 about frankie and his wife being quizzed by David Walsh. Here's a quote: "I know Betsy is not a fan, and that's fine, but by helping to bring me down is not going to help your situation at all. There is a direct link to all of our success here and I suggest you remind her of that."
There's the team soigneur (Emma O'Reilly) that testified she found corticosteroids in Lance's luggage. Also that during a massage armstrong said "My haematocrit is 41%, way below the max allowed (50%), so I'm gonna do what everyone does"
There's the statement of the team's mechanic (Mike Anderson) that he found a box of steroids in lance's apartment.
There's lance's "misterious" millionaire "donation" for some misterious blood machine
There's Steve Swart's statement that he (swart) and all others on the team were doping.
There's the fact he chased down Simeoni for testifying in court what everyone already knew and had been proven in several cases before: that Dr. Ferrari, the italian Fuentes, (with whom armstrong has admitted time and time and time again to working with and defended ) is no more than a dope salesman. Incidentally, the list of Ferrari's clients that have tested positive is quite big.
There's the fact that he chased down Christophe Bassons, the rider who Virenque, Zülle, Moreau and the others testified was the only clean rider on the Festina team. Armstrong went up to him and flat out said "Why don't you just go away?", then proceded to yell at Bassons in detail just how his public acknowledgement of widespread doping in the peloton was bad for everyone involved and how Bassons should shut up and leave cycling.
There's the IM conversation between Lance's long time teammates Jonathan Vaughters and Frankie Andreu where they detail Postal/Discovery's doping practices in some detail.
There's the re-testing of 1999 Tour samples where Lance tested positive 6 different times for EPO, in ways in which, with the doses of EPO being as they are in each individual test, the samples being contaminated is impossible (high dosage on the morning of each important stage, lower doses in between, just as you'd expect from a normal doping regimen).
I'd like to point out that the usual blind lance fan's argument against this is the stupidest ever: "the samples were kept for 6 years before being re-tested. they were no longer proper".
First of all, clinical trials were started in 1972 by preserving samples to see for how many years they would still be reliably testable. We're in 2009 and still counting, and that's far longer than 6 years.
Second of all, even if the time for a sample to be reliable were extremely short, say for instance only 2 weeks, exogenous EPO doesn't "magically" appear in urine out of thin air.
There's Lance consistently denying that he had any TUEs to declare several times during the first two weeks of the Tour, only for his teammate Kevin Livingston to run into the room in a hurry screaming "fuck! they're testing us for corticosteroids!" two weeks later, at which point Armstrong coincidentally "remembered" that he had a TUE to declare after all, and...what a coincidence...a TUE for corticosteroids precisely. One that was later established was in fact a backdated prescription. Needless to say Lance tested positive. But he got away on account of having a prescription.
There's, to anyone who's familiar with the climbing performances of riders throughout the years in scientifical terms, it's painfully obvious that Lance's regular climbing power in his Tour winning years is far, faaaaaaaar beyond what is possible clean, even for the theoretically perfect athlete. I don't care that he's "a freak of nature", or that "his heart is as big as a plate" or he "produces much less lactate" or that he has only one ball and is thus more aerodynamic. All those excuses are just that....excuses. His climbing power isn't a little over what's believable in the most extreme case....it's aeons above it.
There's the fact that at the 2001 Tour, when the EPO test was new and feared by the riders, when by the admission of several now retired riders "everyone was so scared that they were riding pretty much clean", lance's (as well as everyone else's) climbing powers are light-years below their performances of other years.
There's Armstrong working for years with doctors such as Ferrari, constantly defending them, constantly stating they were not supplying riders with doping products....until it was proven they were and Lance suddenly stopped talking about them or training with them.
There's Armstrong making a living hell out of the lives of anyone who tried to come to public with evidence that he was doped, using his political leverage to make people lose their jobs (his Oakley liaison Stephanie, anyone?), credibility, race wins, contracts. heck, he flat out told Vaughters that if he gave Matt DeCanio a contract with Garmin, armstrong would have Trek withdraw sponsorship of the team.
There's countless of his teammates leaving his team, only to test positive despite their performance not increasing even a slight bit compared to when they were riding for him.
How come he's sued everyone that wrote even the slightest bit of innuendo about him, but not random house? Simple. He doesn't want to open up a can of worms. Not to mention that whenever he sues someone for saying he doped, he's NEVER let it go to court. He's always either settled or withdrawn the lawsuits.
More obviously, there's the fact that lance and his cohorts can't even get their goddamned stories straight. Their court statements are contradictory. Bill stapleton's statements even contradict himself!
There's surely more that I'm forgetting. But I guess that will do for now.
Armstrong is the face of the omerta. he's the one most concerned with upholding it, and has demonstrated it time and time and time again.
By the way, my personal favorite in all this is when Betsy Andreu was testifying in court what lance had said to his oncologists (see above), Tim Herman (lance's legal counsel) jumps up and yells "YOU MISUNDERSTOOD THEM! HE SAID HE WAS USING THAT STUFF TO FIGHT THE CANCER!"...................so how did she misunderstand the doctors if lance's entire defence is based on saying that that meeting never happened and those doctors are fictional people made up by Mrs. Andreu?
Did you write all that now or do you keep all that in a word document ready to brutaly contradict any Lance fans? Edited by ponka00 on 07-07-2009 19:48
ponka00 wrote:
There are only reliable tests for about 20% types of EPO... Everyone in the peleton can dope if they do it properly and pay enough money to do it. Lance had EPO in several tests during the 1999(?) tour.
I am sure he doped back then. I just hope he isn't stupid enough to dope now...
Allow me. May I? Thank you.
chrica04 wrote:
I can't believe you all still think Lance is a doper. I guess since most good Europeans get caught, Lance must be doping. The guy has been tested more than anyone.....never caught.
Let's see...
First there's the cancer that methastasized waaay too fast for it to be possible in anyone not taking HGH.
There's also the fact that the cancer should've been picked up much, much earlier than it was because in the early stages of testicular cancer, certain markers show up in doping tests and are so obvious they are impossible to miss.....unless you're using masking agents to conceal drug use.
In which case those markers are masked as well. In his case, they were masked.
Then there's Betsy Andreu testifying that she and Frankie Andreu (Lance's long term friend and teammate of many tours) were there in the room when Lance told his oncologist "Yes, I took corticosteroids, EPO, HGH, testosterone, cortisone(...)", but I guess she's lying, huh? After all, who wouldn't throw away her and her husband's career, friendships and basically destroy their lives just for 5 minutes of "fame" in specialized cycling media ?
There's an e-mail lance sent frankie andreu in december 2003 about frankie and his wife being quizzed by David Walsh. Here's a quote: "I know Betsy is not a fan, and that's fine, but by helping to bring me down is not going to help your situation at all. There is a direct link to all of our success here and I suggest you remind her of that."
There's the team soigneur (Emma O'Reilly) that testified she found corticosteroids in Lance's luggage. Also that during a massage armstrong said "My haematocrit is 41%, way below the max allowed (50%), so I'm gonna do what everyone does"
There's the statement of the team's mechanic (Mike Anderson) that he found a box of steroids in lance's apartment.
There's lance's "misterious" millionaire "donation" for some misterious blood machine
There's Steve Swart's statement that he (swart) and all others on the team were doping.
There's the fact he chased down Simeoni for testifying in court what everyone already knew and had been proven in several cases before: that Dr. Ferrari, the italian Fuentes, (with whom armstrong has admitted time and time and time again to working with and defended ) is no more than a dope salesman. Incidentally, the list of Ferrari's clients that have tested positive is quite big.
There's the fact that he chased down Christophe Bassons, the rider who Virenque, Zülle, Moreau and the others testified was the only clean rider on the Festina team. Armstrong went up to him and flat out said "Why don't you just go away?", then proceded to yell at Bassons in detail just how his public acknowledgement of widespread doping in the peloton was bad for everyone involved and how Bassons should shut up and leave cycling.
There's the IM conversation between Lance's long time teammates Jonathan Vaughters and Frankie Andreu where they detail Postal/Discovery's doping practices in some detail.
There's the re-testing of 1999 Tour samples where Lance tested positive 6 different times for EPO, in ways in which, with the doses of EPO being as they are in each individual test, the samples being contaminated is impossible (high dosage on the morning of each important stage, lower doses in between, just as you'd expect from a normal doping regimen).
I'd like to point out that the usual blind lance fan's argument against this is the stupidest ever: "the samples were kept for 6 years before being re-tested. they were no longer proper".
First of all, clinical trials were started in 1972 by preserving samples to see for how many years they would still be reliably testable. We're in 2009 and still counting, and that's far longer than 6 years.
Second of all, even if the time for a sample to be reliable were extremely short, say for instance only 2 weeks, exogenous EPO doesn't "magically" appear in urine out of thin air.
There's Lance consistently denying that he had any TUEs to declare several times during the first two weeks of the Tour, only for his teammate Kevin Livingston to run into the room in a hurry screaming "fuck! they're testing us for corticosteroids!" two weeks later, at which point Armstrong coincidentally "remembered" that he had a TUE to declare after all, and...what a coincidence...a TUE for corticosteroids precisely. One that was later established was in fact a backdated prescription. Needless to say Lance tested positive. But he got away on account of having a prescription.
There's, to anyone who's familiar with the climbing performances of riders throughout the years in scientifical terms, it's painfully obvious that Lance's regular climbing power in his Tour winning years is far, faaaaaaaar beyond what is possible clean, even for the theoretically perfect athlete. I don't care that he's "a freak of nature", or that "his heart is as big as a plate" or he "produces much less lactate" or that he has only one ball and is thus more aerodynamic. All those excuses are just that....excuses. His climbing power isn't a little over what's believable in the most extreme case....it's aeons above it.
There's the fact that at the 2001 Tour, when the EPO test was new and feared by the riders, when by the admission of several now retired riders "everyone was so scared that they were riding pretty much clean", lance's (as well as everyone else's) climbing powers are light-years below their performances of other years.
There's Armstrong working for years with doctors such as Ferrari, constantly defending them, constantly stating they were not supplying riders with doping products....until it was proven they were and Lance suddenly stopped talking about them or training with them.
There's Armstrong making a living hell out of the lives of anyone who tried to come to public with evidence that he was doped, using his political leverage to make people lose their jobs (his Oakley liaison Stephanie, anyone?), credibility, race wins, contracts. heck, he flat out told Vaughters that if he gave Matt DeCanio a contract with Garmin, armstrong would have Trek withdraw sponsorship of the team.
There's countless of his teammates leaving his team, only to test positive despite their performance not increasing even a slight bit compared to when they were riding for him.
How come he's sued everyone that wrote even the slightest bit of innuendo about him, but not random house? Simple. He doesn't want to open up a can of worms. Not to mention that whenever he sues someone for saying he doped, he's NEVER let it go to court. He's always either settled or withdrawn the lawsuits.
More obviously, there's the fact that lance and his cohorts can't even get their goddamned stories straight. Their court statements are contradictory. Bill stapleton's statements even contradict himself!
There's surely more that I'm forgetting. But I guess that will do for now.
Armstrong is the face of the omerta. he's the one most concerned with upholding it, and has demonstrated it time and time and time again.
By the way, my personal favorite in all this is when Betsy Andreu was testifying in court what lance had said to his oncologists (see above), Tim Herman (lance's legal counsel) jumps up and yells "YOU MISUNDERSTOOD THEM! HE SAID HE WAS USING THAT STUFF TO FIGHT THE CANCER!"...................so how did she misunderstand the doctors if lance's entire defence is based on saying that that meeting never happened and those doctors are fictional people made up by Mrs. Andreu?
Enough?
And all that being said... he's as clean as every other rider who has finished in the top 5 of a TDF since Lemond last won a Tour.
The difference is with 7 years of dominance, people have been going after Lance a lot longer, so there's a lot more out there. Ever since Lemond found the other riders all of a sudden got a ton faster while he stayed the same... cycling has been doped amongst EVERY rider of note. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
The difference is some are reasonable enough about their usage not to get caught... while some go overboard and get in trouble.
There's no difference between Lance and someone like Sastre or Contador or Leipheimer or Evans or Menchov. They're just the guys who haven't gotten caught.
KurtinSC wrote:
And all that being said... he's as clean as every other rider who has finished in the top 5 of a TDF since Lemond last won a Tour.
The difference is with 7 years of dominance, people have been going after Lance a lot longer, so there's a lot more out there. Ever since Lemond found the other riders all of a sudden got a ton faster while he stayed the same... cycling has been doped amongst EVERY rider of note. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
The difference is some are reasonable enough about their usage not to get caught... while some go overboard and get in trouble.
There's no difference between Lance and someone like Sastre or Contador or Leipheimer or Evans or Menchov. They're just the guys who haven't gotten caught.
Agreed on all counts except the last one.
There's one substantial difference between Lance and the others, that makes him a lot more targetable: he's an asshole of biblical proportions. He has no respect for anyone and would stab his own mother for a Tour win.
Because Lance is an hypocritical animal, just like Virenque, raging off and criticizing dopers, then he was later found out being doped after all. With enough money, you can do anything and take anything.
Clean Tours? That ended with LeMond, the only, real, true American hero (G.I. Joe) winning the Tour clean.
"What am I on? I'm 8 hours on the bike" are perfect statements that you fall for. It just makes US people proud of their country without looking at logic, proof, and evidences.
And excellent post by issoisso, I knew already some of those arguments (proven, facts) I just didn't realized the whole scope.
KurtinSC wrote:
And all that being said... he's as clean as every other rider who has finished in the top 5 of a TDF since Lemond last won a Tour.
The difference is with 7 years of dominance, people have been going after Lance a lot longer, so there's a lot more out there. Ever since Lemond found the other riders all of a sudden got a ton faster while he stayed the same... cycling has been doped amongst EVERY rider of note. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
The difference is some are reasonable enough about their usage not to get caught... while some go overboard and get in trouble.
There's no difference between Lance and someone like Sastre or Contador or Leipheimer or Evans or Menchov. They're just the guys who haven't gotten caught.
Agreed on all counts except the last one.
There's one substantial difference between Lance and the others, that makes him a lot more targetable: he's an asshole of biblical proportions. He has no respect for anyone and would stab his own mother for a Tour win.
Well... that part isn't all that unique either amongst cyclists. Hinault was a pretty large ass too. I'd say Contador and Evans qualify as well of the guys I listed (equal to Lance even). Sastre and Menchov don't seem that jerkish... but they seem to be the minority rather than the majority. Di Luca? Jerk. Ricco? Jerk. Cavendish? Jerk. Boonen? Jerk. Lemond? Jerk. Vino? Jerk.
And even the ones who aren't outright asses tend to be superior and aloof... I'd say Menchov, Leipheimer and Sastre fit in that along with guys like Indurain from the past and sprinters like Hushovd.
Honestly, the guys you look at and think of as "nice, friendly, non-arrogant guys" are pretty much limited to helpers in the pelaton. Guys like Chris Horner.
Certainly an interesting stage. Some entertaining crashes and then the jersey right down to the wire. Im glad Cancellara kept the lead tho, you can always count on the Swiss time keeping
I wouldn't agree with a lot of the guys you mentioned being jerks. LeMond is a bit self-righteous but that's because he's devastated with the direction the sport is taking. He's a really nice guy.
KurtinSC wrote:
And all that being said... he's as clean as every other rider who has finished in the top 5 of a TDF since Lemond last won a Tour.
The difference is with 7 years of dominance, people have been going after Lance a lot longer, so there's a lot more out there. Ever since Lemond found the other riders all of a sudden got a ton faster while he stayed the same... cycling has been doped amongst EVERY rider of note. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
The difference is some are reasonable enough about their usage not to get caught... while some go overboard and get in trouble.
There's no difference between Lance and someone like Sastre or Contador or Leipheimer or Evans or Menchov. They're just the guys who haven't gotten caught.
Agreed on all counts except the last one.
There's one substantial difference between Lance and the others, that makes him a lot more targetable: he's an asshole of biblical proportions. He has no respect for anyone and would stab his own mother for a Tour win.
Who are you to talk about respect, Isso? You are sitting on your ass watching cycling while they are out there doing there job and riding thousands of km, and the first thing you do after a racer or under a race is to run to your PC to talk shit about riders you think are using dope or you dont like... You call that respect? Pff.
Biathlon wrote:
Who are you to talk about respect, Isso? You are sitting on your ass watching cycling while they are out there doing there job and riding thousands of km, and the first thing you do after a racer or under a race is to run to your PC to talk shit about riders you think are using dope or you dont like... You call that respect? Pff.
Mike's a patient guy. On a lot of forums you'd be banned after all your crap the past few weeks.
If you think I'm wrong, then try to prove me wrong with facts. Which is something you never do. Which is why you don't deserve any respect.
Edited by issoisso on 07-07-2009 20:11
KurtinSC wrote:
And all that being said... he's as clean as every other rider who has finished in the top 5 of a TDF since Lemond last won a Tour.
The difference is with 7 years of dominance, people have been going after Lance a lot longer, so there's a lot more out there. Ever since Lemond found the other riders all of a sudden got a ton faster while he stayed the same... cycling has been doped amongst EVERY rider of note. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
The difference is some are reasonable enough about their usage not to get caught... while some go overboard and get in trouble.
There's no difference between Lance and someone like Sastre or Contador or Leipheimer or Evans or Menchov. They're just the guys who haven't gotten caught.
Agreed on all counts except the last one.
There's one substantial difference between Lance and the others, that makes him a lot more targetable: he's an asshole of biblical proportions. He has no respect for anyone and would stab his own mother for a Tour win.
Who are you to talk about respect, Isso? You are sitting on your ass watching cycling while they are out there doing there job and riding thousands of km, and the first thing you do after a racer or under a race is to run to your PC to talk shit about riders you think are using dope or you dont like... You call that respect? Pff.
What makes you that much different from him then?
Seriously, the evidence against Lance is devestating, and even more so if they could test his samples from 99 over again...
issoisso wrote:
I wouldn't agree with a lot of the guys you mentioned being jerks. LeMond is a bit self-righteous but that's because he's devastated with the direction the sport is taking. He's a really nice guy.
Contador is also a very nice guy.
Lemond is my favorite cyclist of all time, and I like how Contador rides in the mountains a lot...
But both come across as complete arrogant asses to me.
I've never met ANY of them (Lance included), so I don't have any personal experience, but Contador making claims that Levi was trying to "steal" the Vuelta from him or Lemond accusing ANYONE who did well after he was done of doping strike me as very "assholish" things to say. (even when I agree with what they were saying).
KurtinSC wrote:
Contador making claims that Levi was trying to "steal" the Vuelta from him
That was paranoia. Contador clearly has very low confidence and gets very nervous and stressed and starts shooting in all directions after very little.
Other than that, he strikes me as a genuinely nice guy
ruben wrote:
can anybody explain to me why Biathlon is not banned yet?
I dont know one of my accounts was banned after 10mins of talking crap during paris roubaix and he always sem to find a reply even though it is pointless. And as many of you have said never states any facts!!!
KenL wrote:
Careful good sir, that Lance and his mafia don't come after you...every-other detracter has been dispensed of and I would hate to see an article with"Isso disappears...bike also missing...a Texan sunset ride was his last know destination"
As long as I stick to facts (which I do), nobody can do a damn thing.
KenL wrote:
Let's face it, 1). Lance has brought a heighten interest to the Tour which can only be good for sponsorships for everyone.
He brought a heightened interest to the Tour alone, and only in the USA.
KenL wrote:
2). Americans will never accept that one of their own will dope, (Landis for example: blame the French lab).
?
and he always sem to find a reply even though it is pointless. And as many of you have said never states any facts!!!
