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The Runners thread
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 27-01-2014 23:45
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Wanna get technical ? 
Reading more physiology books, as it seems I'll be able to properly run soon.
I've spent the whole night understanding a bloody equation (and I'm a man of science, so to speak...), but I've finally got it. The purpose is to determine the number of repetitions you can do for intervals, with active recuperation.
Basically you need to know your aerobic work capacity (AWC) and your critical speed (or speed at a state of constant lactate), let's call it CS. You need a 1500 m or a mile time, and something close to a 5000 m time. Draw an x, y chart with time in seconds as x, and distance as y.
The line should cross the y axis at some distance (50 to 400 m), whereas the slope of the curb is your critical speed. That one should be above your threshold but under your max aerobic speed if you've already done tests such as VAMEVAL.
To reach exhaustion you need to recuperate less energy during the counter exercise than you've wasted during the exercise. Your AWC divided by that difference equates the number of repetitions of exercise + counter-exercise you can do.
The energy wasted is the product of the exercise time multiplied by the difference between exercise speed and CS, whereas the energy regenerated during counter exercise is counter-exercise time multiplied by CS - recuperation speed.
To be accurate that's not energy but distances, you'd need to multiply each term by 4 J/kg to make it an actual energy, but let's not get more complicated.
Feel free to post your 1500 or mile PB and your 5000 m PB, I'll see if I can get this thing working. |
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| golance123 |
Posted on 29-01-2014 19:00
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Aquarius, I'll give you some numbers to crunch. I have been running mostly 8Ks for the last 3 years, so my mile and 5K PBs are a little old, but here they are: Mile (5:01), 5K: (18:02) |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-01-2014 19:19
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Ah, cheers. Have you done a max aerobic speed recently ? If not I'll calculate your speed on 4 minutes based on that.
Also, are your training plans indications given in time per km, time per 400 m, or km/h (or mph maybe) ?
edit : after a quick processing, and assuming your numbers are still valuable nowadays, your formula for VO2max and threshold efforts (~3-30 minutes) is : D = 4,34.t + 303
with D (distance) in meters, and t (time) in seconds.
maximal aerobic speed is 20,2 km/h (quite good, no world-beater of course), and your anaerobic capacity (303 m) is also one of the most important I've seen. For example mine is 83.
If you'd do 30-30s intervals during 10 minutes and reach exhaustion at the 10th acceleration, let's say your efforts should be done at 21 km/h (105 % of VO2 max speed), or 175 m. Counter-exercise (resting) should be done at 13,7 km/h (114 m).
Now, if you'd do 6 x 1 km at VO2max speed with 400 m of slow running, and aimed to reach exhaustion at the end of the 6th km, that'd give something like 2:58 or 2:59 per km, and the 400 m rest should be done in 2:20 or 2:21.
That's much faster than me, though I'm only ~6 % slower on a 5 km race. There's much less difference between my exercise and counter-exercise speed. Poor anaerobic capacity...
Edited by Aquarius on 29-01-2014 19:39
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 24-02-2014 12:12
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One more foe with my coach.
He doesn't seem to understand how speed decreases with time.
To him one max aerobic speed (how do you call that in English ?) rules all the performances on distances up to a half marathon. Give him your 5000 m speed and he knows how fast you'll run 21.1 k. Bullshit.
He doesn't seem to know or acknowledge the endurance factor, which determines how much of your maximal aerobic speed you can maintain throughout time. Not sure he's ever done much mathematics either, so logarithms and exponentials are not his cup of tea.
It's still quite simple for 30 min to 4 h efforts : S = MAS - EI.ln(T) (by Peronnet)
With S being speed, EI being the endurance index, and T expressed in minutes.
I believe there's no point arguing when all the answers I get are 'been training marathon guys for 30 years blablabla, trainers' education blablabla, field experience.
I tried to give him examples of guys who do more or less the same times on 1500 but have huge differences on 10k, but he doesn't answer that part.
Oh well, why am I forced to have a trainer anyway ?
[/rant]
Edited by Aquarius on 24-02-2014 12:12
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 24-02-2014 15:51
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Classics Specialist
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If you want some more numbers to crunch, my PB for 1 mile is 05.37.92 and my 5000m-time is 18.21.12.
Your trainer seems like a bit of a... how do you say... twat?
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 24-02-2014 17:25
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Yeah, more like old-fashionned with a rigid mind. I've printed charts at work, I'll see if he only looks at them Wenesday evening.
Cheers for the numbers.
Meanwhile I've improved my 5000m and my mile time, 18:31 and 5:31 respectively.
So far "our" equations for 3 to 30 minutes efforts say :
Aquarius : D = 4.28 t + 244
golance123 : D = 4.34 t + 303
cactus-jack : D = 4.44 t + 108
with D as distance (in metres), and t in seconds
Our VO2 max (in mlO2/min/kg) seem to be :
Aquarius : 66.7
golance123 : 69.1
cactus-jack : 62.6
Our VO2 max speed are :
Aquarius : S = 5.34 m/s (or 19.2 km/h)
golance123 : S = 5.52 m/s (or 19.9 km/h)
cactus-jack : S = 5.02 m/s (or 18.1 km/h)
And we can sustain that for :
Aquarius : t = 3:50 or 1 224 m
golance123 : t = 4:16 or 1 414 m
cactus-jack : t = 3:06 or 935 m
Edited by Aquarius on 27-02-2014 06:51
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 24-02-2014 18:21
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Classics Specialist
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Very interesting numbers, but do you mind explaining the first numbers to me (D=4.44t + 108, in my case)?.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 24-02-2014 18:55
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Yes, no problem.
Actually the performances decrease linearly between 3 and 30 minutes (180 to 1800 since t is in seconds). D is distance in metres and the other number is your threshold speed.
Threshold speed is the speed when the lactates produced match the lactates eliminated. Virtually you could go on at that speed for ever (30 to 60 minutes in reality). The higher it is, the most "powerful" your aerobic metabolism is.
The last number, expressed in metres is your anaerobic work capacity (also known as AWC or reserve). It's the distance covered thanks to your anaerobic metabolism.
Basically, if you want to calculate your speed on 7 minutes (420 seconds), replace t by 420 and find the distance, then divide by 420 and voilà . D = 4.44*420+108 = 1973 m, then speed is 4.70 m/s or 16.9 km/h.
Or the other way round, if you want to guess your time on a 3000 m, replace D by 3000 and find t :
3000 = 4.44*t + 109
t = (3000-109)/4.44 = 10:51 |
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 24-02-2014 19:11
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Thanks alot for the explenation. Pretty cool equation, I must say.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| golance123 |
Posted on 26-03-2014 19:00
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Aquarius, thanks for the calculations (sorry I haven't been on in a long time)! Pretty cool I must say. So from a quick calculation, my 8,000m predicted time would be roughly 29:30? |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 26-03-2014 19:56
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Yep, something very close to that. Give it a try and let me/us know. Of course it's always dependant on the conditions : competition, route, wind, form, etc.
Also, the 'speed at threshold' can generally be maintained between 30 and 60 minutes (around 40 for most people). Last time I ran a 10k it proved to be spot on for me (38:51, which is an average of 3:53,2 per km, my pace at threshold is theoretically 3:53,6).
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| golance123 |
Posted on 27-03-2014 00:13
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I have been out 5 weeks with a partial tear of my patellar tendon, so I just resumed training this week. I still plan on running a marathon at the end of May. My 8,000m competitions will be during cross country in the fall. I'm hoping the 29:30 prediction works out to be correct during the season! |
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 06-04-2014 21:11
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I ran 2:12.33 on the 800 metres today, improving my PB by over four seconds. Can't wait to see what else this season will bring 
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| jseadog1 |
Posted on 06-04-2014 21:13
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fcancellara wrote:
I ran 2:12.33 on the 800 metres today, improving my PB by over four seconds. Can't wait to see what else this season will bring
Nice! I ran 2:15 in my meet last week, but have been focusing on the 1500m now, where I am currently at 4:35 and coming down by the week
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 06-04-2014 21:17
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That's fast times, for both of you. Congratulations ! |
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| PeterSon |
Posted on 11-04-2014 09:45
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Hello guys! I'm a runner but lately I have troubles with recovery.
So can You tell me some methods for faster and better recovery ? |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 11-04-2014 11:35
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You need to tell us more about your recovery problem, that's much too vague.
Is this between intervals ? After training ? Does this last for several days ? Is it some sort of general exhaustion ? Heavy legs ? Muscular pains ? Anything else ? |
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| PeterSon |
Posted on 11-04-2014 15:17
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Under 23
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I feel my legs heavy and I feel tense in my muscules even before training, I haven't much time for recovery so I need an advice how to recover well for less time.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 12-04-2014 17:18
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Tensed muscles : probably either lack of stretching, either lack of core work, or both.
Heavy legs : either too many broken muscular fibres, either too much lactates accumulated (do you do a lot of work above max aerobic speed ?).
Progression comes from a smart management of fatigue and work loads. If you're constantly tired before training, you should consider taking it a little easier or taking a break.
To help recovering : stretching, warm down, proper warm up before you actually start working out, restoring carbohydrates and water levels between sessions, possibly doing a blood check to be sure you're not lacking something like potassium, magnesium, iron, etc. Sleep early and well, relax. You might use contention tights, either on the lower half of your legs, either on all of them.
Controversial studies also suggest to expose legs to cold water for a given duration, then to normal temperature, and repeat. Results are controversial. Athletes tend to feel better but there's no significant improvement in performance, as far as I understood.
One of my mates, who does a lot of muscular workout (for swimming purposes) takes amino acids a few days before events, to help the reconstruction of muscular fibres. Not sure if relevant for runners though, I've never tried that. |
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| lakebeach |
Posted on 12-04-2014 17:55
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I just found this thread. I'm a runner who like to run longer distances, especially 10 km and half marathons. I'm currently training for Göteborgsvarvet, the biggest half marathon in the world.
"It's very hard to work with other guys because nobody wants to work with me so it's better to drop everybody." - Peter Sagan |
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