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2012 DB: Stat Discussions
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| jimycooper |
Posted on 26-05-2012 23:48
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Hey guys, I don't think Bagdonas for An-Post has been updated? He's one of the best riders at conti level and most of his stats are lower to mid 60's when they should be high 60's or even 70 in sprint.
Notable results are winning his nat tt champs last year beating Navadaskuas(sp) and winning the bunch sprint in the road race beating Koupis who we all know is good.
Anyway see what you think, here's his CQ data https://cqranking....derid=1561
Young Kenneth Vanbilsen also on An-Post should also be raised as he's had a great year so far, or atleast a raise in potential.
cheers guys let me know what you think |
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| jimycooper |
Posted on 27-05-2012 00:04
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Under 23
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oh also how about fenn's sprint being raised to 70 as he got a 5th in a stage of the Tour of Belgium a few days ago https://cqranking....ceid=22610 |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2012 07:44
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World Champion
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Tilion wrote:
lluuiiggii wrote:
Tilion wrote:
And one more thing. Stats have to small difference. Contador is much better than Schleck and he have just 1 climbing more.
Stats have a 35 point-range from worst of the worse to best of the best. Add to that the fact that worst of the worse aren't added in the DB, and that best of the best have 83 (set it on 85 and young riders won't be good enough to challenge them ever), and you get an 8 point difference from a TdF winner and a Giro Top 20th. The point-range is too small, we can do nothing about it. And we truly saw how much better Contador is than Andy on the 2010 Tour.
Yea this is sad;/ and now at databases form the beggining of 20th century we've got Armstrong and Pantani with same climbing;p I think pantani was best climber ever so.. maby creators of the game should change stat limit to 100? 
Not changing the limit, but not setting so many over 80 by statmakers would help. Make Schleck/Contador 80/81 max and the rest according to that, it is functional in many databases, to lower the stats all around.
And giving Hesjedal 80+? Guys please be serious, this is weak Giro, it does not mean Hesjedal will suddeenly start to outclimb Andy Schleck because of that.He is one-eyed king among blind ones.
Edit: my suggestion are:
Rodriguez:80 MO
Hesjedal:79 MO
Scarponi:79 MO
Basso:79/78 MO
Uran,Pozzovivo,Kreuziger,Cunego: 78/77 MO
Henao,De Gendt,Gadret,Nieve: 77/76 MO
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 27-05-2012 07:49
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| Smal |
Posted on 27-05-2012 12:23
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I think it's clear Pozzo doesn't liker the longer stages. Give him 78MO and relatively low stamina/recovery. We saw what he was capable of earlier in the race with his stage win. He rode away from a bunch that was already at a very high pace. I think a three week tour is jut too much for him.
Hesjedal clearly doesn't deserve 80 in MO. He'd be a TdF competitor then. Give him, Scarponi and Basso 79. All that separated them is form, imo. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 20:21
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| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 27-05-2012 12:31
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Smal wrote:
I think it's clear Pozzo doesn't liker the longer stages.
He won in Lago Laceno, one of the longest stages. 
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| Smal |
Posted on 27-05-2012 13:41
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meh. Must've been a slow day up until the last few kilos  |
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 28-05-2012 19:10
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I hate to say 'I told you so', but I told you so
https://pcmdaily.c...ost_483563
In my current carreer, TDG has got these stats. I think they reflect his current abilities quite well. Interesting note: I also became third with him in in the Giro in my carreer (normal difficulty).
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| CountArach |
Posted on 29-05-2012 03:40
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Grand Tour Champion
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He can't climb that well. He got lucky that Vande Velde and Hesjedal were on the rivet and he was on the same climb he trains on most of the time. Those things meant that he performed better than he does the rest of the time. Look at the other mountain stages, he did not perform that well.
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| xXMajesticoXxx |
Posted on 29-05-2012 09:10
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Junior Rider
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Just back to Boonen, I got an answer that they also look at the last 3/2 years while changing the DB.
If Hesjedal or much other riders like de gendt or etc gets a big change in his states. I don't think that this would be fair if we would let boonen states.
Sprint from77->79
Flat 80->81
Endurance 81->82 ( look at this solo in roubaix 52,5km)
Cobble 82->83
Farrar 80->79
Kittel 81->81/82
Cavendish MO: 60->57
Terpstra COB: 77->78
Sagan Sprint 79->79/80 (impressive rider!!!!)
Gilbert hills 82-> 80
if Boonen states won't be changed i dont think it will be realistic than. I'm a neutral player of the game, but i like realistic states.
I hope the Official Pcm12 DB will be much different.!!!
I have several friends in real life or much member of rsm.de or procyclingmanager.com who are on the same opinion as me.
PLS BE REALISTIC AND FAIR!!
in one thread i read "boonen's flat and sprint are enoguht to won the classics" yes it can be enough , but we don't only play the classics and it "can" be enough. PLS REALISTIC
And the theorie of looking at the resuults of 3/2 years is a bit shitt, because than we shouldnt give riders llike hesjedal or de gednt such big states . PLS REALISTIC!!
Thanks...
Greetz Maje |
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| Teddy The Creator |
Posted on 29-05-2012 09:43
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Hesjedal -> 79 MO
De Gendt -> 76 MO
Scarponi, Basso -> 79 MO
Rodriguez -> 81 MO/82 HIL
Pozzovivo -> 78 MO
And I agree on most of those Boonen stats above except his sprint which should stay the same I think.
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 29-05-2012 12:41
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People who are recommending De Gendt at 76 Mo are forgetting his Alpe D'huez finish last year, and the fact that he rode one of this year's Giro Mountain stage finishes with a flat tire in the last 2,5 kms.
Seriously, I'm sick of riders like Lars Petter Nordhaug who haven't had any special results getting 75 MO while De Gendt, who became 3rd in the second biggest race of the year, having to put up with 76 according to some.
Bit biased towards UK riders/teams imo... |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 29-05-2012 12:48
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ShortsNL wrote:
People who are recommending De Gendt at 76 Mo are forgetting his Alpe D'huez finish last year, and the fact that he rode one of this year's Giro Mountain stage finishes with a flat tire in the last 2,5 kms.
Seriously, I'm sick of riders like Lars Petter Nordhaug who haven't had any special results getting 75 MO while De Gendt, who became 3rd in the second biggest race of the year, having to put up with 76 according to some.
Bit biased towards UK riders/teams imo...
Welcome to the world of Peter Velits.His stats are even lower (i know it was Vuelta where he was 3rd but you know what i mean + he won Oman this year).And we have to live with Nordhaug and the others, half of Sky is overrated in climbing because of good results in shit small races said by Cav's words
Edit: I would settle with 77 for both Velits and De Gendt, while De Gendt is already great fighter in the database and up his recuperation a lot as he was great in third week.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 29-05-2012 12:50
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| Teddy The Creator |
Posted on 29-05-2012 12:55
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It's true that Nordhaug is a bit overrated but you can't blame them since we all know about Alakagom's man-crush on LPN.
About De Gendt, I'd love to give him 77. But other than the Stelvio and D'Huez he hasn't given that many great results. And I think riders like Niemic, Szmyd and Velits who are stuck on 75-76 are just as good as him.
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| roturn |
Posted on 29-05-2012 12:59
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xXMajesticoXxx wrote:
Cavendish MO: 60->57
I wouldn`t lower his mountain stat too much. Different to several other sprinters he fought a lot and finished the Giro.
With 57 he wouldn`t reach the time limit on some of the mountain stages and couldn`t fight for the point jersey. |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 29-05-2012 13:41
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First point to xXMajesticoXxx and really to all. There's no point in you writing all the stats and what you would change without any kind of saying why. Why would you lower Cavendish mountain stat ? You said nothing, and I agree with Roturn absolutely here.
The way to do this is how CountArach does it. He suggest stat changes, he gives him point and evidence and explains his choice. That's the way to do it, posting just stats without any meaning isn't going to change much. There are few great suggestions here from various posters and I am not going mention names, but please always give kind of feedback on more speculative stats xXMajesticoXxx.
Lars Petter Nordhaug well. Destryed the field at Trofeo Deia. Was great at Criterium International and was 2nd best on the climbing stage along Evans, got 4th purely as he had to get back to help Rogers. At Paisv Vasco he was great, top level competition and he was one of the best and got 6th, you telling me that's bad result ?
He sat on the Amstel winner's wheel and would had a Top 5 if not the crash with Cuengo... Even with his fall he attacked ith Hesjedal at FW. He was caught along Hesjedal but tried and showed something. He destroyed decent field in Norway and set up EBH's win. Please tell me that IS something.
Velits, he will be improved to 77 in MO after a decent Tour. Except Oman he didn't show much, that will come from many riders too. Many target Tour and I will judge their results there, goes for likes of Froome etc.
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| Kami |
Posted on 29-05-2012 14:26
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Classics Specialist
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Alakagom wrote:
Lars Petter Nordhaug well. Destryed the field at Trofeo Deia. Was great at Criterium International and was 2nd best on the climbing stage along Evans, got 4th purely as he had to get back to help Rogers. At Paisv Vasco he was great, top level competition and he was one of the best and got 6th, you telling me that's bad result ?
He sat on the Amstel winner's wheel and would had a Top 5 if not the crash with Cuengo... Even with his fall he attacked ith Hesjedal at FW. He was caught along Hesjedal but tried and showed something. He destroyed decent field in Norway and set up EBH's win. Please tell me that IS something.
Velits, he will be improved to 77 in MO after a decent Tour. Except Oman he didn't show much, that will come from many riders too. Many target Tour and I will judge their results there, goes for likes of Froome etc.
I don't have the latest database with me atm, but if he really has 75 in MO, i can't agree. The results you mentioned really aren't that special if you look at it. The most impressive one is the Amstel.
How many times has it been said that no one is in shape in early february and that results in those races can't be accounted for. Fenn won 2 races in that Trofeo Mallorca, does that mean he's above average?
About the other results:
Criterium International: yeah, he finished in the Evans group, but so did Nocentini.
Isn't Tour of Norway mostly flat with a few hills?
Pais Vasco, along with Amstel one of his better results, but honestly if you give him 75 MO for one performance, a lot of riders would need a boost.
If you give him 75MO on potential output in races, i can agree however, but really, then a lot of other riders stats should be boosted aswell.
TL;DR: I have a feeling that some riders receive stats for potential results and others have to 'proof' things first. Should be consistent and choose one or the other.
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 29-05-2012 14:40
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Nordhaug 73MO/74HIL would be fair, just compare it to other riders with those stats.
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| micke007 |
Posted on 29-05-2012 14:43
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I don't see how people can say that De Gendt hasn't prooved to be a good climber yet, he won the queen stage of the giro, was with the better climbers on almost every stage plus managed to finish with a decent result on a moutain stage riding on a flat tire for 3 km. people don't seem to realise that it seems. Sure the favourites let him attack on the last mountain stage but he managed to keep his advantage and don't forget het got rid of Cunego and Nieve on the last climb wich some of you would give a higher mo stat.
De Gendt:
Mo: 77/78
tt: 75/76
Rec: 77/78
contador rulezzz
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| xXMajesticoXxx |
Posted on 29-05-2012 14:55
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Alakagom wrote:
First point to xXMajesticoXxx and really to all. There's no point in you writing all the stats and what you would change without any kind of saying why. Why would you lower Cavendish mountain stat ? You said nothing, and I agree with Roturn absolutely here.
The way to do this is how CountArach does it. He suggest stat changes, he gives him point and evidence and explains his choice. That's the way to do it, posting just stats without any meaning isn't going to change much. There are few great suggestions here from various posters and I am not going mention names, but please always give kind of feedback on more speculative stats xXMajesticoXxx.
Lars Petter Nordhaug well. Destryed the field at Trofeo Deia. Was great at Criterium International and was 2nd best on the climbing stage along Evans, got 4th purely as he had to get back to help Rogers. At Paisv Vasco he was great, top level competition and he was one of the best and got 6th, you telling me that's bad result ?
He sat on the Amstel winner's wheel and would had a Top 5 if not the crash with Cuengo... Even with his fall he attacked ith Hesjedal at FW. He was caught along Hesjedal but tried and showed something. He destroyed decent field in Norway and set up EBH's win. Please tell me that IS something.
Velits, he will be improved to 77 in MO after a decent Tour. Except Oman he didn't show much, that will come from many riders too. Many target Tour and I will judge their results there, goes for likes of Froome etc.
ok my explanations:
Boonen:
Sprint: 77->79
First of all he showd everyone that he is capable to beat 1st class sprinters. He presents himelf very well and already won the most things with his sprint qualities. In Gent-Wevelgem especially he beat Sagan, freire, goss, boasson hagen, in a head-on -head sprint->pls look at the video of gent wevelgem, he was full in the wind all the time in his sprint.
Flat:80-81
Flat quaalities are how long an hard you can push on the flat.
If u watch the situation in Paris-oubaix, after the Ballan group was catched he rode all the time against the wind and the group splitted up enormomously. Also everyhtime he pushs on flat terrain the group gets elongated.
Accleration:76-79/78
As far as i know accleration is used for how a rider increases his spead or his attacks.
Omloop heht nieuwsblad or E3-Prijs we saw the attacks of Boonen on the Taaienberg. Neither Ballan nor Cancellara wasn't able to keep up with that speed.
Cobble:82->83
I think Canca is perhaps on the same level with Boonen on the cobbles. But to give Boonen 83 in cobbles could be a gift for his performance in the classics. He won nearly won all the classics. That was even better than his performance in 2005. In 2005 boonen had 85 cobbles
Endurance:81-82
I think not much riders are capeable to do a 52,km solo with cobble stones as obstacles. In the episode of Omega Pharma Quick step, Wilfred peeters said 4km to go:"unbeliveable he is still doing 56kp/h
Now to the other stuffs.
Cavaendish:
Mountain: 60-57/56
cavendish is a very bad mountain rider who also has prblems staying with the grupetto. He is usually riding against the waitiin period.
If we let Cavendish with 60 Mountain he will always be able to come over the difficult mountains without any problems. That would be extreamly boring.
Farrar:
Sprint: 80->79/78
Farrar didn't show anything this year. He was alwas beaten with a perfect leadout train in Scheldepriijs. If we give farrar 80 in sprints , he would nearly win every sprints if cav or griepel isn't there.
Sagan:
Sagan is a very impressive rider. In some years he could be one of the legends. I think his states are OK. But i would increase his Endurance a bit.
Thomas De gendt:
Mountain 77->75/76
I would never give De gendt 77 in mountain. Perhaps he was 3rd in giro but he did that with his fighting abilties. Before stage 20 he was 12th in the GC. Perhaps he had an extreamly good day and his luck was also a facotor that could position himself so good in the Gc again.
I think the explanations are good understandabel
Greetz Maje |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 29-05-2012 14:59
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World Champion
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And that's great and I can see where you are coming from Good job.
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