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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 23-10-2020 13:39
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Junior Rider
Posts: 39
Joined: 27-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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idk about this being such a weak field, the numbers we have seen from piancavallo were pretty impressive and Nibali himself says that his numbers matched his previous Giro efforts, he may be past it but also the young generations efforts should not be disocunted imo i think Hindley and Tao should be either an 80 or more realistically a 79 and from then on the mountain stats could be adjusted.
Ben O'Connor was the best climber from the breakaway guys this giro so something like 76 or 77 would be justifiable for him imo
Dennis's performance today would be the equivalent of a +5 day on pcm, so i'd maybe improve his mtn stat by 1 if at all |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 22:02
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 23-10-2020 13:48
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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alex199412 wrote:
idk about this being such a weak field, the numbers we have seen from piancavallo were pretty impressive and Nibali himself says that his numbers matched his previous Giro efforts, he may be past it but also the young generations efforts should not be disocunted imo i think Hindley and Tao should be either an 80 or more realistically a 79 and from then on the mountain stats could be adjusted.
Ben O'Connor was the best climber from the breakaway guys this giro so something like 76 or 77 would be justifiable for him imo
Dennis's performance today would be the equivalent of a +5 day on pcm, so i'd maybe improve his mtn stat by 1 if at all
We have to compare these riders to the likes of Pogacar, Roglic and Porte the podium at the Tour and if they were fresh and riding this Giro, just think how much better they would be than these riders that are there and what their numbers would be. Even other riders like Lopez, Landa and Mas to name just a few are much better as well. I've even mentioned Bilbao as being the best here if he was fresh and he is a 79 rider with good backups such as great rec and good TT but still a 79. But as we often state that if a number of members think that the riders leading the Giro deserve higher stats than 76,77 and 78 then we will look at this personally I don't think they do but I count as just one vote here 
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 23-10-2020 14:05
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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If a rider wins a GT, he has to be given stats that allow him to do that in PCM. You're making a 2020/2021 DB the primary focus has to be on replicating performance in 2020.
If they then go backwards next season you bring them back down accordingly.
These arn't complete flukes by late 20-something riders. Wilco has Top10'd four of his last five GT's! Tao and Jai are young enough you can mark this up as progression from talent to challenger.
Don't need to go crazy into the 81's but up around 79 is reasonable given history when someone like Horner or Cobo came through to win the Vuelta, or JCP podium'd the Tour.
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| hansw |
Posted on 23-10-2020 14:21
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Amateur
Posts: 21
Joined: 17-07-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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I wouldn't give Tao, Hindley and Kelderman more than 78 either. I see it the same way as Tafiolmo. My personal three favorites (Kruijswijk, Yates, Thomas) for the Giro are all no longer there. The best remaining ones were probably Nibali (age or bad shape), Fuglsang (imo no GT driver) and Kelderman. Can't remember a Grand Tour with such a weak top 10 and it probably won't happen again. I also don't think that you have to set the strengths for PCM that way (Tao and Hindley 79 MTN or even higher), because it won't appear in the game either and owing to the circumstances it occurred. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 23-10-2020 20:33
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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In my opinion the riders in the Giro: (His Mountain stat):
Kelderman 78
Hindley 78
Tao Geoghegan Hart 78
Pello Bilbao 79 (he was in Tour de France)
Joao Almeida 77
Fuglsang 78 (low rec. because he is not a Grand Tour rider)
Nibali 78
Masnada 77
Pozzovivo 78
Majka 78
Samitier 75
Pedrero 76
Knox 76
Zakarin 77
Ben O'Connor 77
McNulty 76 |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 24-10-2020 07:18
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
These are going to be the sprint stats as things stand and taking all into consideration Ewan is the fastest here. Also saw a comment about Ewan’s train being weaker than Bennett but bear in mind that he lost Degenkolb and in-game Degenkolb makes a great last leadout man for Ewan
Groenewegen 83/81
Ewan 82/83
Bennett 82/82
Ackermann 81/82
Viviani 81/82
Jakobsen 81/82
Gaviria 81/81
Demare 81/79
Nizzolo 80/81
Kristoff 80/77
Bol 80/76
Pedersen 80/76
Merlier 79/81
Sagan 79/80
WVA 79/77
Coquard 78/79 |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 24-10-2020 07:21
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Kelderman 78
Hindley 79
Tao Geoghegan Hart 79
Pello Bilbao 78
Joao Almeida 77
Fuglsang 78 (low rec)
Nibali 78
Masnada 77
Pozzovivo 78
Majka 78
Samitier 75
Pedrero 76
Knox 76
Zakarin 77
Ben O'Connor 77
McNulty 76 |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 24-10-2020 07:30
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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What about Froome? He's really bad, maybe shoots more that he's about to come back again and not so much his true abilities? But will he ever return? He's getting old. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 24-10-2020 07:36
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Froome 73 or 74
Edited by AiZaK on 24-10-2020 07:48
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| Jakob8b |
Posted on 24-10-2020 07:45
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Amateur
Posts: 12
Joined: 15-04-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Sorry if this is only tangibly related, but how do you balance a rider so that he is good in a longer sprint? Think Mads Pedersen and Cees Bol. It can't be as simple as lowering the ACC. What about someone like MVdP? In my opinion he shows great acceleration but has also proved to be able to do very long sprints (Amstel for example).
Does the RES and FLA stats afffect this? |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 24-10-2020 15:30
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion the riders in the Giro: (His Mountain stat):
Kelderman 78
Hindley 78
Tao Geoghegan Hart 78
Pello Bilbao 79 (he was in Tour de France)
Joao Almeida 77
Fuglsang 78 (low rec. because he is not a Grand Tour rider)
Nibali 78
Masnada 77
Pozzovivo 78
Majka 78
Samitier 75
Pedrero 76
Knox 76
Zakarin 77
Ben O'Connor 77
McNulty 76 Tao Geoghegan Hart and Hindley are better than the others. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 24-10-2020 17:16
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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What do you want??? 80 for them??? If they ride against Roglic, Pogacar, Carapaz,... They are so bad in mountain. Currently I think its wrong give more than 78, or 79 maximun |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 24-10-2020 17:45
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Hindley 78
Tao 78
Kelderman 77 with worse rec
Bilbao 77
Almeida 77 max
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 24-10-2020 18:57
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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78 is way too low for Tao and Hindley imo. They should get 79 at least, or even 80. ( I assume the best climber(s) have 83 )
Also, Dennis with another incredible performance. I think whatever Sky lacked at the Tour, they fixed it. Can't wait for Roglic vs Carapaz in the Vuelta to give a clearer picture.
The user formerly known as 'The Schleck Fan'
Gracias Alberto.
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 24-10-2020 20:03
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Hindley 78
Tao 78
Kelderman 77 with worse rec
Bilbao 77
Almeida 77 max
Seriously Bilbao 77??? Please remember the Tour de France, Pello destroyed all the group of the best working for Mikel Landa.
He is very good climber. Why many people only judge the stats only for the current race??? |
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| King_Ric |
Posted on 24-10-2020 21:04
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Junior Rider
Posts: 44
Joined: 03-07-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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I would give Hindley and Tao 79 and Kelderman and Bilbao 78 (yes, i know Bilbao also did the tour but i don't that at his best he would be able to beat this Tao and Hindley, in fact i think this is the best Bilbao we have ever seen and is form was in crescendo since tour's 3rd week till the giro).
I won't give a opinion about Almeida as i might be biased, but you should have in count that he beated many climbers of the top 10 in some climbs and you can't rate them much (or anything) higher than him. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 24-10-2020 21:51
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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As I expected a huge range of stats for these riders in the Giro between 80 and 78 being mentioned but a few things to remember. We tend to stat taking last years performances into consideration as well because riders go up and down in form over the period of a year and this year this is even more so the case, as some riders like Viviani etc have never really got going in this short season but he's still one of the best sprinters in the peloton therefore we haven't downgraded him but just upgraded other riders around him. Froome though is clearly a different situation due to that injury but again I think he still has something to offer.
Therefore if we consider that Nibali finished second in the Giro last year and in a much stronger field than this year's Giro and finishing above Roglic and Landa as well, so 80/76 was a good stat for him. This year he's been off form and whether this is a serious decline we still don't know and given his track record he's still worth a 79/76 based on his recent track record. Another is Majka who can be great on his day but never really a GC rider in GT's (did well though at Giro 2019 in GC) but he's better over a week and he finished third in Tirreno behind Yates and Thomas which had a better quality field than the Giro. Finally imo if a fresh Bilbao were here, he would be superior to both Tao and Hindley as he's a proven GT support rider always capable of being team leader and is strong in what is important such as TT and rec and was superb at the last week of the Tour within an elite field.
This year's Giro has had a piss poor startlist after the big guns Thomas and Yates went out and Fuglsang resorted to his usual GT form. The Stelvio and Sestriere stages have said it all really where the best and strongest rider was Dennis a TT specialist that has been the domestique for Tao who is another domestique for a number of Ineos leaders. Sunweb have even been worse with team leader Kelderman being embarrassed by his domestique Hindley and nobody would be mentioning Almeida if Remco was there.
Let's face it, if riders like Thomas and Yates were here they would've left these riders for dust and if Remco had been there he would've romped over these mtns (if his rec was good) and put minutes into these riders that are competing for the overall.
Therefore putting riders like Tao and Hindley at 79 is very generous and yes they do have potential one day to be leaders in their teams and probably can't believe their luck how things have turned out. For the sake of the Giro it would be better that either Tao or Hindley win because if Kelderman were to win, we would have a rider that is actually weaker than he's been over the previous years, as both his climbing and TT have not been as good but then again he could also be a victim of coronavirus training like Viviani has been and therefore not performing at his best.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 24-10-2020 22:04
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 24-10-2020 22:09
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Jakob8b wrote:
Sorry if this is only tangibly related, but how do you balance a rider so that he is good in a longer sprint? Think Mads Pedersen and Cees Bol. It can't be as simple as lowering the ACC. What about someone like MVdP? In my opinion he shows great acceleration but has also proved to be able to do very long sprints (Amstel for example).
Does the RES and FLA stats afffect this?
For riders like Pedersen and Bol its a case of giving them low acc BUT high res which boosts their already high flat stats as well. Natural sprinters tend to have a bit lower flat and res. In general RES is king in this game which is why we try and only give it to power type riders. MVP is a bit different though because he is all about acc in a sprint but has very high res and flat as well, so therefore we try to keep his actual sprint stat on the lower side.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 24-10-2020 22:11
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| King_Ric |
Posted on 24-10-2020 22:10
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Junior Rider
Posts: 44
Joined: 03-07-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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No disrespect to Bilbao, but being a proven GT support rider isn't the same as being a GT leader. In fact, we have had before great domestiques that tried to have a shot as leaders and failed. My final point is that Bilbao wasn't able to Tao or Hindley while he was arguably in the best form of his life. Even if you say he was fatigued we don't really know how fatigued he was, and anyway, thats just an "if situation" of him not going to tour.
I still respect and understand your opinion and at the end of the day it's your call, i just tried to explain my point. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 24-10-2020 22:24
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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King_Ric wrote:
No disrespect to Bilbao, but being a proven GT support rider isn't the same as being a GT leader. In fact, we have had before great domestiques that tried to have a shot as leaders and failed. My final point is that Bilbao wasn't able to Tao or Hindley while he was arguably in the best form of his life. Even if you say he was fatigued we don't really know how fatigued he was, and anyway, thats just an "if situation" of him not going to tour.
I still respect and understand your opinion and at the end of the day it's your call, i just tried to explain my point.
Well Porte is the best example of this and one of the best doms of recent years and it took him years to actually land a podium position as a leader but his climbing ability was still there and one of the best climbers in the game and in fact as a dom for Froome was often higher than the team leaders of other teams. Bilbao may not be as good as Porte but is a similar situation to Porte. Bilbao's mtn stat was never questioned after the Tour de France because he was competing with the best in the world but by happening to be riding the Giro his climbing stat is more highlighted. Therefore we can say he was 79 mtn at the Tour and more like a 77 at the Giro and that 2 or 3 point difference= post Tour fatigue which most riders have, the big exception to this was Dumoulin a few years ago where he amazingly finished 2nd in both the Tour and Giro.
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