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Formula 1 2013 Season
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 05-10-2013 16:31
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miggi133 wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
Miguel98 wrote:
sutty68 wrote:
Vettel on pole yet again, this guy is just too good 
Is not that good. Put Raikkonen or Alonso in the Red Bull and they will crush the field by minutes.
Yes he is. Do you seriously think Vettel is not a good driver? Go home, you're drunk.
Vettel is a brilliant driver. He also has a brilliant car. Alonso and Raikkonen are on the same level as Vettel, but their cars are less good. No way they'd do much better than Vettel if they had the same car.
And yet whenever he is getting under pressure (I.E. the car isnt working brilliantly and he cant easily pull away from anyone) he struggles. I mean, you can clearly see that he piles on mistake after mistake when he is not in podium contention. Im sorry, but that is not the sign of a good driver!
Differentiation. Vettel is a good driver. He is not a great driver.
No-one, NO-ONE, can win 4 consecutive titles without being a good driver.
The Red Bull is the best car, no doubt, but Vettel crushes Webber. If the Red Bull was as good as many people make out, then Webber would be 2nd in the WDC every year, and he isn't. The car is good, Vettel is good. In combination they are unbeatable.
Alonso is a great driver. He gets a slower Ferrari into genuine title contention, whereas quicker cars (2012 McLaren, 2013 Mercedes) struggle to keep up.
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| nacho63 |
Posted on 05-10-2013 16:36
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Vettel is certainly a very good driver, think we will be able to judge whether he is a great driver in a few years time |
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| miggi133 |
Posted on 05-10-2013 21:21
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TheManxMissile wrote:
miggi133 wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
Miguel98 wrote:
sutty68 wrote:
Vettel on pole yet again, this guy is just too good
Is not that good. Put Raikkonen or Alonso in the Red Bull and they will crush the field by minutes.
Yes he is. Do you seriously think Vettel is not a good driver? Go home, you're drunk.
Vettel is a brilliant driver. He also has a brilliant car. Alonso and Raikkonen are on the same level as Vettel, but their cars are less good. No way they'd do much better than Vettel if they had the same car.
And yet whenever he is getting under pressure (I.E. the car isnt working brilliantly and he cant easily pull away from anyone) he struggles. I mean, you can clearly see that he piles on mistake after mistake when he is not in podium contention. Im sorry, but that is not the sign of a good driver!
Differentiation. Vettel is a good driver. He is not a great driver.
No-one, NO-ONE, can win 4 consecutive titles without being a good driver.
The Red Bull is the best car, no doubt, but Vettel crushes Webber. If the Red Bull was as good as many people make out, then Webber would be 2nd in the WDC every year, and he isn't. The car is good, Vettel is good. In combination they are unbeatable.
Alonso is a great driver. He gets a slower Ferrari into genuine title contention, whereas quicker cars (2012 McLaren, 2013 Mercedes) struggle to keep up.
A- my bad, I used the wrong word...
B- Watch a few races of Ferrari back in the Schumaher Barichello Days. The car dominated everyone and yet Rubens was never up with Michael! Also, his car was always the one where the engines blew up etc. And lets not forget Ferraris methods of letting Schumacher win... In an interview they he told that they were informing him of a breach of contract if wasnt gonna let schumacher pass. Do you really think Red Bull is such an honest team that they do the same thing to Webber? The only difference is that they hide it better!
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 05-10-2013 21:30
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Ok yes RBR do treat Webber like sh*t, but he is the guy with the closest machinery. Hence he is the main guy you have to compare Vettel to. That said Webber is not exactly great, he lucked into the RBR drive years ago when the sponsors changed.
And as much as i hate RBR, Ferrari were the example of everything bad. RBR come no where near that level (i hope)
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| miggi133 |
Posted on 05-10-2013 21:59
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TheManxMissile wrote:
And as much as i hate RBR, Ferrari were the example of everything bad. RBR come no where near that level (i hope)
Give it another 2 years and then compare notes...
To be honest, I think they are already an awful lot worse!
I almost feel sorry for Ricciardo, cause he'll end up being the next Verstappen/Barichello/Massa/(Webber)!
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| Rin |
Posted on 05-10-2013 22:21
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Well the discussion is pretty  (don't know which word to use) but well the Webbo stuff is too bananas to let it there:
Webber went after the Jaguar years (Jaguar went on to become RBR 2005) 2005 to Williams for 2 years and came back 2007 to what was now RBR.
But lucking into the team?
- RBR wasn't that top team back then 2007 RBR was a typical midfield team
- Webber showed good races especially Monaco 2006 to be pointed out for Williams which were at their downfall (well easy to say after seeing what was coming after 2006)
- The RBRs were back then much more unreliable then now. A lot of transmission problems and issues.
- Horner came to RBR 2005 when RBR was established (after RB bought Jaguar Racing) how could Horner know Webber? As the team chef he has to know what he can offer. Maybe the other staff still being at RBR could have had their say but I doubt that.
So lucking into the team is pretty much false.
In the Brawn (Benetton/Ferrari) years it was known that anything new and very promising was first on the number 1s (Schumachers) car. Well that is also the case with Vettel/Webber I remember some stuff in Spa? some years ago with a diffrent (better) front wing.
But I doubt that RBR would be so dumb (constructors championship decides how much money a team gets from Bernies big pot, not the drivers championship) to make Webber extra worse or giving him parts that would blow up pretty soon.
Maybe giving him diffrent parts but extra giving him parts that blow up is bananas. With all the technique the teams have (compared to the early 90ies) they can monitor even in the production parts that might be not from the best quality if they aren't looking away.
But I think the biggest case with Vettel/Webber is the weight.
Nowadays teams are pretty much obsessed (thanks to dumb regulations by not putting the minimum weight up by 10 or more kilos) of having the chance to give extra weight to the car by putting the weights at diffrent areas of the car to help improving the cars balance.
Webber is tall and rather heavy (plus looking very skinny almost like a ski jumper from the early 2000ies) whilst Vettel is not that tall and so not that fat.
Also a car can not be made for 2 drivers that are not that similar in weight and height.
I guess the general balance etc. is made for Vettel and not for both or for Webber.
I think Webber could be better in a team that gives him the number 1 status but unfortunately it is only in Le Mans in 2014.
But he could be also over his prime now (in F1) probably like Hill (1999) or Schumacher (comeback) whose haven't known that they should have stopped instead of trying it (well easier to say when you know the outcome).
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| issoisso |
Posted on 05-10-2013 22:25
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Rin wrote:
But he could be also over his prime now (in F1) probably like Hill (1999) or Schumacher (comeback) whose haven't known that they should have stopped instead of trying it (well easier to say when you know the outcome).
A driver's prime is at age 30 approximately, this is well researched. After that synapses don't fire as quickly.
At that age, his peak, Webber was getting murdered by meh drivers like Heidfeld and grandpa Coulthard. Yet years of decline after that he was still matching Vettel in 2009 and 2010.
To me that's even more proof that Vettel's nothing special.
Indeed, look what happened when the blown diffuser was outlawed? Vettel was being outscored by Webber, so Red Bull changed the whole car's balance to suit Vettel's driving style because we couldn't have Matschiner's gold boy being beaten, that would hurt sales and Helmut Marko would cry
Or we could go with Alonso's opinion on the order of quality in F1: Alonso, Hamilton and Kubica. Then Raikkonen.
Or we could go with Hamilton's opinion that is the same minus Kubica.
Or we could go with Brundle's description of how Newey doesn't rate Vettel at the level of Mansell and Hakkinen, much less Senna/Prost
Or we could look at Vettel's youth results. Beaten by Di Resta in the same car, same team....yikes that's not good.
Edited by issoisso on 05-10-2013 22:32
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 05-10-2013 22:31
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@Rin
By lucked in i mean, he was already there when they suddenly became real contenders. He would never get near a spot in that team if he was looking in 2009/10.
Yes no team gives parts that will fail to a driver, but older more worn parts yes. Except its RBR who have limitless funds, so im certain they always give new parts when needed to both drivers.
And weight is the thing i hate most in F1. Having a heavy driver limits the ability to set up a car massively now, and will only get worse with the new 2014 regulations. Hulkenberg is another of the drivers who suffers from this problem.
Coulthard put forward a good idea that every car should be independently balanced, with the minimum weight raised to a level where driver size will not matter. But different issue
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| issoisso |
Posted on 05-10-2013 22:33
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TheManxMissile wrote:
@Rin
By lucked in i mean, he was already there when they suddenly became real contenders. He would never get near a spot in that team if he was looking in 2009/10.
Yes no team gives parts that will fail to a driver, but older more worn parts yes. Except its RBR who have limitless funds, so im certain they always give new parts when needed to both drivers.
And weight is the thing i hate most in F1. Having a heavy driver limits the ability to set up a car massively now, and will only get worse with the new 2014 regulations. Hulkenberg is another of the drivers who suffers from this problem.
Coulthard put forward a good idea that every car should be independently balanced, with the minimum weight raised to a level where driver size will not matter. But different issue
Could be worse. in 1991/1992 the weight limit didn't include the driver.
Berger would match the much smaller Senna in testing, then be seconds slower at the races when they had to add ballast to his car but not Senna's.
Luckily the cars for 2014 are heavier so the percentage of weight that is the driver will be less. And they're increasing the minimum weight even more so that guys like Hulk won't be screwed
Hulk's a rarity. A tall guy with the motor coordination of a top driver. It's a once in a lifetime occurrence to see a guy like that that's over 1,75m
Edited by issoisso on 05-10-2013 22:37
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| VoetsT |
Posted on 05-10-2013 22:34
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Ppfff, Vettel is really ruining the 2nd most beautiful sport in the world 
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 06-10-2013 02:10
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Or they could just limit it so the ballast has to be in the cockpit or under the driver so there is no ability to reposition the weight over the wheels.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 06-10-2013 08:43
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I tend to disagree with Heidfeld being meh if Kubica's in the top 3 or 4. Of course Kubica won one race for BMW, but overall Heidfeld beat most of his team mates through his career.
Struggled in qualifications though...
Does anyone have a count of Webber and Vettel's Kers problems ? Must be a 10:1 factor... |
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| roturn |
Posted on 06-10-2013 08:48
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issoisso wrote:
Hulk's a rarity. A tall guy with the motor coordination of a top driver. It's a once in a lifetime occurrence to see a guy like that that's over 1,75m
I normally don`t watch Formula 1 that much for the last ~7-8 years. Was more fun when the names were Hill, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Villeneuve or my favourite driver Frentzen.
But Hülkenberg is really a fantastic driver. Would really like to see him in a bigger team. Ferrari might have taken the "risk" to sign him. Unfortunately they haven`t. |
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| MrUfo87 |
Posted on 06-10-2013 14:26
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This was a great race! Especially for South-Korea. Massa's spin, Rosberg's failing front wing, Webber's BBQ, Pérez' puncture, the South-American fight and Hülkenberg's speed.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 06-10-2013 16:04
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Despite all the amazing action in that race... it was fairly sh*t as Vettel eased it home again.
I've said it before. Doesn't matter how much action there is, without a genuine fight for the win/title, it is pointless!
PDR cannot catch a break at the moment, which sucks. Poor weekend for Force India. Well, they did cook an RBR which was nice.
Hulkenberg does it again. This guy is such a major talent i cannot believe none of the big teams will look at him. What more does he have to do!
Also, that was one hell of a tyre failure! Not really Pirellis fault, but again it's bad press for them. And Rosbergs wing failure as well, really strange.
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| MrUfo87 |
Posted on 06-10-2013 16:08
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Force India cook the wrong RBR. And Hülkenberg will probably go to Lotus, which should not be a very bad move. (With the current ranking, we don't know how it'll be next year).
I think Pirelli should made better tyres. This isn't racing anymore, this is the world championship tyre management.
And Rosberg's firework was master.  (Vettel has had it once on Silverstone in 2010, during the Free Practice.)
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 06-10-2013 16:13
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Despite all the amazing action in that race... it was fairly sh*t as Vettel eased it home again.
I've said it before. Doesn't matter how much action there is, without a genuine fight for the win/title, it is pointless!
PDR cannot catch a break at the moment, which sucks. Poor weekend for Force India. Well, they did cook an RBR which was nice.
Hulkenberg does it again. This guy is such a major talent i cannot believe none of the big teams will look at him. What more does he have to do!
Also, that was one hell of a tyre failure! Not really Pirellis fault, but again it's bad press for them. And Rosbergs wing failure as well, really strange.
one of the main reasons why I like this Indycar season more then this F1 season. (even though Castroneves has been leader since round 2  at least the races are exiting)
Sutil cooked the wrong Red Bull. bad luck for Webber 
Pole with a Williams and now with Sauber. imagine if he gets a great car
Rosbergs wing failure happend this year
same basic thing, little damage on the front wing and then getting out of the slipstream the front wing can't handle the pressure anymore. Alonso's case was just more serious
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 06-10-2013 16:17
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@SSJ
Alonsos was a failure of the wing connection to the nose cone, caused by contact with another car.
Rosbergs was a failure of the nose cone itself, caused by something (probably several somethings).
Two quite different things.
And i disagree about IndyCar (though i havv't watched a lot since the 500). As far as i've followed it it's been a standard season, where there is a close championship but the racing has been lackluster. (i am catching up at the moment with some races, so perhaps i am just behind the good races)
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 06-10-2013 16:25
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@TMM
really, didn't noticed the difference. not always watching details that much. 
I quite like the IndyCar season but maybe that's just me.
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| mattiasgt |
Posted on 06-10-2013 17:09
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issoisso wrote:
Rin wrote:
But he could be also over his prime now (in F1) probably like Hill (1999) or Schumacher (comeback) whose haven't known that they should have stopped instead of trying it (well easier to say when you know the outcome).
A driver's prime is at age 30 approximately, this is well researched. After that synapses don't fire as quickly.
At that age, his peak, Webber was getting murdered by meh drivers like Heidfeld and grandpa Coulthard. Yet years of decline after that he was still matching Vettel in 2009 and 2010.
To me that's even more proof that Vettel's nothing special.
Indeed, look what happened when the blown diffuser was outlawed? Vettel was being outscored by Webber, so Red Bull changed the whole car's balance to suit Vettel's driving style because we couldn't have Matschiner's gold boy being beaten, that would hurt sales and Helmut Marko would cry
Or we could go with Alonso's opinion on the order of quality in F1: Alonso, Hamilton and Kubica. Then Raikkonen.
Or we could go with Hamilton's opinion that is the same minus Kubica.
Or we could go with Brundle's description of how Newey doesn't rate Vettel at the level of Mansell and Hakkinen, much less Senna/Prost
Or we could look at Vettel's youth results. Beaten by Di Resta in the same car, same team....yikes that's not good.
Regarding Webber getting murdered by Coulthard and Heidfeld, what are you exactly referring to? What seasons etc.
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