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News in May
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| ABridgeTooFar |
Posted on 21-05-2010 17:49
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Domestique
Posts: 463
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Crommy wrote:
ABridgeTooFar wrote:
Another point to make is how Landis leaked the story to the Wall Street Journal. Of all people, why the hell would you go to the Wall Street Journal? If the allegations are true and he wants to make a difference then why not go directly to USADA or WADA?
He did 
I got bad info then. The guy from the WSJ who wrote the article said that Landis did not inform those agencies. The writer was on the VS show The Daily Line last night. |
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| ABridgeTooFar |
Posted on 21-05-2010 17:54
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Domestique
Posts: 463
Joined: 17-09-2007
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issoisso wrote:
ABridgeTooFar wrote:
With all due respect to you. issoisso, but unless it can be proven as fact then it is not a fact. In this case in can not.
So, if you hear a gunshot, turn around and see a man standing over a bloody corpse with a smoking gun in his hand, it's not a fact that he's a murderer just because you can't prove it?
[.
That is correct, he is not the murderer based upon those facts alone. However you could prove if he was the murderer using ballistic evidence. Who knows, the gunshot could have come from the gunman over at the School Book Depository or the Grassy Knoll.
That is the type of evidence we need to call it a fact. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-05-2010 18:14
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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ABridgeTooFar wrote:
I got bad info then. The guy from the WSJ who wrote the article said that Landis did not inform those agencies. The writer was on the VS show The Daily Line last night.
Always trust Versus to immediately throw anything that might threaten Lance or American Cycling under a bus.
ABridgeTooFar wrote:
issoisso wrote:
ABridgeTooFar wrote:
With all due respect to you. issoisso, but unless it can be proven as fact then it is not a fact. In this case in can not.
So, if you hear a gunshot, turn around and see a man standing over a bloody corpse with a smoking gun in his hand, it's not a fact that he's a murderer just because you can't prove it?
[.
That is correct, he is not the murderer based upon those facts alone. However you could prove if he was the murderer using ballistic evidence. Who knows, the gunshot could have come from the gunman over at the School Book Depository or the Grassy Knoll.
That is the type of evidence we need to call it a fact.
The problem here is this isn't a discussion of philosophy or semantics. Maybe it's because I'm an engineer, but I tend to see things in a very much practical light. And in a practical light, the chances those guys rode clean are about as good as those of me winning the lottery four weeks in a row.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| H Tong Long |
Posted on 21-05-2010 19:00
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Amateur
Posts: 17
Joined: 27-01-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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What I would like to see, from a barrack room lawyer's perspective, is Lance Armstrong answer the simple question:
"Have you ever knowingly taken banned performance enhancing substances during your career?",
with a simple "Yes", or "No", on live television. Something that I do not believe has ever happened.
Saying that: The team has nothing to worry about". Or, "Do you really think, given my medical history.........", is not the same thing as an unambiguous denial of the central allegations.
His consistent avoidence of such a course only prolongs and promotes suspicion. Particularly amongst those with any personal experience of the use of "spin" to cloud controversial issues. And, let's face it. Armstrong is his own best P.R. guru! He's played the game for "Livestrong", at all levels of Western society, for well over a decade now. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:03
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World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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E-mails: https://www.livest...legations/
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:16
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Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
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I note that there is no documentation posted for any of the responses by Armstrong or Radioshack
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| p3druh |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:18
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2667
Joined: 28-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Without having read the content of the e-mails, I browsed through them and that was the first thing I noticed.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:21
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Team Manager
Posts: 33046
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Ive read bits of them, and I get the impression this is simply the latest Armstrong attempt to discredit Landis - I dont think it has much relevance in terms of the accusations of Landis
Edited by SportingNonsense on 21-05-2010 20:21
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| Crommy |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:22
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World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Ive read bits of them, and I get the impression this is simply the latest Armstrong attempt to discredit Landis - I dont think it has much relevance in terms of the accusations of Landis
Of course it is - Lance is trying to play the Floyd is crazy card.
His defence is built solely on getting Floyd so discredited that nobody will believe him.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:24
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Of course it is. And I fully expected these e-mails to show a level of crazy that would further damage Floyd. I honestly believed there would be insane accusations and random crap.
But the e-mails are written in a normal, balanced manner, inviting people to get involved in an attempt to clean up cycling if they are so inclined.
Armstrong is completely clutching at straws here.
Where's the evidence of extorsion and all the other accusations Armstrong levelled? There's nothing at all.
EDIT: One very interesting thing: Floyd was holding back on naming names until he could negotiate immunity for anyone who wants to confess.
I wonder if he got it. I doubt it.
Edited by issoisso on 21-05-2010 20:33
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:44
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
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Indeed, he's handling the situation the knightly way. I doubted he could ever do that after his stance and various actions in his so called false positive. Looks like the guy has a conscience in the end, and deserves a huge respect for what he's doing at the moment, even if I'm still uncertain about his chances of success.
Let's consider it from the people he involves point of view : how would you get away with it ? The only chance is to put the debate where it's not. Talk about why it's coming out during ToC, say Landis' only motivation is bringing attention towards himself. Then, or first, discredit anything the guy could say. He's got a grudge, he's unstable, he's a drunk, he's doing it for money since he's got no more.
I'm hoping Landis has enough material to back up anything he claimed. After all, he now seems wiser than he looks. And he had been planning it for months and months now. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 19:57
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| deek12345 |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:53
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2761
Joined: 13-06-2009
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has there been any responses from the other riders landis accused? |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:55
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
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Armstrong and Hincapie denied everything.
The Phonak staff (Rhys and Lelangue) as well as Bruyneel also denied everything.
Michael Barry's case is being considered by Team Sky, I'm not sure he has made a public statement though.
I didn't read anything from other involved riders or staff. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:55
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World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
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Michael Barry denied it on his webpage
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| BouBBox |
Posted on 21-05-2010 20:58
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 892
Joined: 01-06-2009
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Of course they denie XD. Would be stupid from them to admit they are dopped because of accusations from a guy like Landis.
Edited by BouBBox on 21-05-2010 21:03
Team Europcar !!
RIP Wouter
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| doddy13 |
Posted on 21-05-2010 21:00
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7891
Joined: 04-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Right my final line on this.
I believe the claims, I believe the case.
However, Floyd Landis does have mental issues that he needs to get sorted, whilst I don't like him, it's a shame to see.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
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| Rinhoth |
Posted on 21-05-2010 21:04
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 300
Joined: 11-04-2007
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The fact remains that Landis has no credibility, except for the fact that it could fit in with the allegations of other people. It could be just this, that it fits.
As of now, he has shown no proper documentation, and the diary he claims to have will have been written by himself, and so will not be very strong, given his recent history.
If the e-mails Lance Posted are true, Landis has been grasping at straws for a long time to get into ATOC, to rebuild his reputation, and seems to have gotten it in his head that it is Lance that is stopping him. The timing of his allegations also support this story.
Now don't get me wrong. I believe Lance has doped, as all things point to it, and so the probability is extremely high, and I am a realist. However, I also believe the principle of "Innocent until porven guilty" is very important. It is not good enough to say that we cannot find any other way for this to have happened, we have to prove that it definitely happened this specific way.
If he however has some proper documentation, he will wait for someone to make a specific denial, preferably Lance or Bruyneel, and then he will pounce, revealing them as liars. If he can catch them lying, their credibility will be f*cked, and so will they, even if it is a small and unimportant lie, which doesn't prove anything.
If children have the ability to ignore all odds and percentages, then maybe we can all learn from them. When you think about it, what other choice is there but to hope? We have two options, medically and emotionally: give up, or Fight Like Hell.
-Lance Armstrong
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| doddy13 |
Posted on 21-05-2010 21:07
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7891
Joined: 04-03-2007
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Rinhoth wrote:
The fact remains that Landis has no credibility, except for the fact that it could fit in with the allegations of other people. It could be just this, that it fits.
As of now, he has shown no proper documentation, and the diary he claims to have will have been written by himself, and so will not be very strong, given his recent history.
If the e-mails Lance Posted are true, Landis has been grasping at straws for a long time to get into ATOC, to rebuild his reputation, and seems to have gotten it in his head that it is Lance that is stopping him. The timing of his allegations also support this story.
Now don't get me wrong. I believe Lance has doped, as all things point to it, and so the probability is extremely high, and I am a realist. However, I also believe the principle of "Innocent until porven guilty" is very important. It is not good enough to say that we cannot find any other way for this to have happened, we have to prove that it definitely happened this specific way.
If he however has some proper documentation, he will wait for someone to make a specific denial, preferably Lance or Bruyneel, and then he will pounce, revealing them as liars. If he can catch them lying, their credibility will be f*cked, and so will they, even if it is a small and unimportant lie, which doesn't prove anything.
On the evidence, I said to isso on MSN earlier today.
If this evidence exists, now is the time to make it public. I want to know it exists.
I believe the claims, but this case is going nowhere without the evidence.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
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| Rinhoth |
Posted on 21-05-2010 21:11
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 300
Joined: 11-04-2007
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doddy13 wrote:
On the evidence, I said to isso on MSN earlier today.
If this evidence exists, now is the time to make it public. I want to know it exists.
I believe the claims, but this case is going nowhere without the evidence.
It depends on the significance of the evidence he has. If it is major evidence, which puts it beyond any measurable doubt that Armstrong doped, then yes, but then he would have revealed it at once.
I believe that if he has any evidence at all, it is so small and insignificant that it can only be used to discredit someone by catching them in a lie. But mainly I believe that he has no proper evidence, and only claims from himself, such as the diary he mentioned.
If children have the ability to ignore all odds and percentages, then maybe we can all learn from them. When you think about it, what other choice is there but to hope? We have two options, medically and emotionally: give up, or Fight Like Hell.
-Lance Armstrong
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-05-2010 21:13
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
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I disagree. Landis needs to wait until every single person involved has denied this. After that, he should reveal any evidence he has.
But I think everyone's missing the big picture here: For the whole house of cards to fall, people have to talk. The easiest way to get Levi, Zabriskie, Kristin, etc. to talk is to have a criminal investigation....
....and Armstrong just made the very boneheaded move of accusing Landis of extortion. There's now a chance a criminal investigation will actually happen.
Not to mention that the Feds are investigation, and the Feds are not a sports regulating authority...you do NOT screw with those people.
If there's one thing I have learned in years and years of following cycling's doping investigations, it is that it may take a very long time, but the truth WILL out.
Edited by issoisso on 21-05-2010 21:16
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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