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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| kumazan |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:01
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CrueTrue wrote:
However, I stand by that the main reason for people reacting so aggressively is that Sky is winning and being dominant. There's plenty of dopers that no one cares about, because they are not winning the Tour by five minutes.
Sure. Just like a dude robbing someone's phone wouldn't make the news, but a gang robbing at the Federal Reserve would be all over it for months. You being a journalist should understand this very well.
CrueTrue wrote:
So apparently, it's OK to be doped as long as you make sure the race is still interesting (see the Giro for an example).
Last time I checked Nibbles dominated the Giro GC by minutes as well.
CrueTrue wrote:
Again - this may very well be the least tainted (in terms of doping investigations/links) Tour de France winner in recent history, yet he's among the most questioned. I'm not sure I feel that's fair.
As isso said - Sastre. And who was less questioned that Froome? Armstrong? Landis? Contador? Maybe Evans, and it might have to do with not having gone from average domestique to GT superstar in your 4th years as a pro when a doping doctor joined your team.
Edited by kumazan on 17-07-2013 21:01
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:07
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CrueTrue wrote:
Again - this may very well be the least tainted (in terms of doping investigations/links) Tour de France winner in recent history, yet he's among the most questioned. I'm not sure I feel that's fair.
Evans less tainted aswell. Only link to Ferrari being his first road race test where he impressed (best numbers of all riders Ferrari ever tested before he started to give them advice?)
Never saw Ferrari after that
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:21
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issoisso wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
Again - this may very well be the least tainted (in terms of doping investigations/links) Tour de France winner in recent history
Not at all. You can't name a single thing about Sastre
I've always wanted to know if you knew anything about him (or what anyone thinks really), since I didn't find anything on him, other than riding for CSC, but I hope he was clean. One of my favourite riders 
Sastre always struck me as a bit different. Plus him and Riis didn't get along, so maybe....
This might be a little off-topic though...
Edited by valverde321 on 17-07-2013 21:25
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| Jacdk |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:31
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CrueTrue wrote:
That quote is directed at Jacdk - I'm not saying that other people didn't come up with other arguments.
However, I stand by that the main reason for people reacting so aggressively is that Sky is winning and being dominant. There's plenty of dopers that no one cares about, because they are not winning the Tour by five minutes. So apparently, it's OK to be doped as long as you make sure the race is still interesting (see the Giro for an example).
Again - this may very well be the least tainted (in terms of doping investigations/links) Tour de France winner in recent history, yet he's among the most questioned. I'm not sure I feel that's fair.
Since your a cycling journalist CT, then you must know that the only argument you can come with is that Froome and Sky are riding beyond what is possible or should be possible for a rider that is not using anything.
However the way you put is so simplistic that it almost sounds like your making fun of the argument, but funny enough unless you catch Froome and Sky with their hand down the doping-jar, thats the only argument anyone can come with.
And no people are not questioning Sky because they win and they win a lot, people are questioning Sky because how they win, and because a rider like Froome can have a season that stretches from Feb to end of july and probably beyond that.
And when someone removes the human factor, because everyone has a bad day and its normal to get fatigued, its no wonder that people start to question that performance.
But let me ask you, what argument do you want that would prove to you that people have a legitimate reason to question Sky and Froome? because the times and watts and o2 intake, is exactly the same argument you seem to be laughing at i came with. |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:34
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Sastre, Evans and Purito were all relatively poor responders if they were doping.
I am very interested to see how Froome's time measures up to Sastre's tomorrow.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:35
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mb2612 wrote:
Sastre, Evans and Purito were all relatively poor responders if they were doping.
I am very interested to see how Froome's time measures up to Sastre's tomorrow.
I would say Pantani. Wouldn't admire if Pantani record went boom after tomorrow. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:41
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BritPCMFan wrote:
You can train hard without over training. You can train low intensity and still over train. Its all about recovery.
I've heard stuff about systems being tried out by some football teams which mean they can practically tell exactly when someone is about to get injured (obviously not from a contact). I'm sure I remember Arsene Wenger referring to it as a reason he subbed a player at some point last season.
Presuming it is a system of this ilk that Sky are using, it would mean they are in effect able to train harder and smarter. I'm not gonna pretend I am an expert in the subject, but from what I do know its the sort of thing that would enable you to train better as you could push harder and know when exactly to stop, and when exactly to start training again and at what levels to ensure no further damage etc. That would give an advantage over people without such a system.
Probably not 5 minutes difference though.
That prediction thing for injuries ? Rocket science. Seriously, with a bit of knowledge, and keeping a diary of my training, workloads, etc. I can predict when I have a high risk of non accidental injury for myself.
And I'm rather noobish on the subject, imagine what a proper trainer could do. Do you think only Sky could use such things for their riders ?
Recovery ? Sky, Sojasun, and previously Columbia used Compex stuff (also as a preparation tool). I've no idea about Sky, but they mustn't have much of an edge here, if any at all.
Cryo-regeneration ? FDJeux did it last Vuelta. I don't know about this year's TDF or other races, but it's most likely in use, to improve recovery speed. But then again, how much of an edge could Sky possibly have there ?
And I'm only mentioning FDJeux and Saur because I know a bit about them, but surely all or most other WT teams are equally well-equipped.
Last but not least, about the wonderfully efficient training : that gives you an edge during one season or two. Then some riders change team and share their knowledge. Really I don't buy that as the ultimate explanation of Sky's dominance.
@lluuiiggii : the whole idea of those passports is cross-analysing. After a while it's known how a rider reacts to a training workload. How much work of what kind he's done, how much it's affected his capability to perform, how much core and superficial fatigue it's made, how quickly he gets rid of a defined amount of fatigue, for what blood values this is true, and how much a quantified fatigue affects blood datas.
Then if you see Hct increasing or remaining steady when values should be decreasing, it shows a manipulation (hint : Wiggins published his TDF 2009 blood datas, what do they show ?).
If a rider has trained little and wasn't fatigued, but suddenly sees his performance improving (as shown on the Power Passport), then there's a manipulation, etc. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 05:55
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| Mustneeger |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:45
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Taaremäe on his blog on the Mont Ventoux stage: "It felt like former top team US Postal making the tempo"
I guess it doesn't make too much since he never rode in USP days but gives an idea what he thinks about the Sky domination. Also years past he was always fairly open in saying that Armstrong was a doper.
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| XxMillad24Xx |
Posted on 17-07-2013 21:57
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What has been very interesting to me is how Froome hasn't had a "bad day" maybe this entire season. Even Armstrong had a bad day in the tour. Froome, I haven't seen it yet in 2 years.
"Cycling is now the the world's cleanest sport." - Chris Froome
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| Jacdk |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:03
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XxMillad24Xx wrote:
What has been very interesting to me is how Froome hasn't had a "bad day" maybe this entire season. Even Armstrong had a bad day in the tour. Froome, I haven't seen it yet in 2 years.
Froome had a offday in the Vuelta
There he was beat by Contador by over 10min´s and over 9min by Rodriguez/Valverde.
A Contador who came in after being out for almost a year. |
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| XxMillad24Xx |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:04
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Jacdk wrote:
XxMillad24Xx wrote:
What has been very interesting to me is how Froome hasn't had a "bad day" maybe this entire season. Even Armstrong had a bad day in the tour. Froome, I haven't seen it yet in 2 years.
Froome had a offday in the Vuelta
There he was beat by Contador by over 10min´s and over 9min by Rodriguez/Valverde.
A Contador who came in after being out for almost a year.
Your right, that was a bad day. This season though, I haven't seen it.
"Cycling is now the the world's cleanest sport." - Chris Froome
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| Jacdk |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:07
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XxMillad24Xx wrote:
Your right, that was a bad day. This season though, I haven't seen it.
Yep, this season he has been 100% since Feb.
Which is one of the reason i suspect him, because thats just not human. |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:15
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Stage 6, Tirreno.
His last relatively bad day this season.
Edited by Alakagom on 17-07-2013 22:15
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| Cossack |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:17
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Aquarius wrote:
Cryo-regeneration ? FDJeux did it last Vuelta. I don't know about this year's TDF or other races, but it's most likely in use, to improve recovery speed. But then again, how much of an edge could Sky possibly have there ?
And I'm only mentioning FDJeux and Saur because I know a bit about them, but surely all or most other WT teams are equally well-equipped.
Przemysław Niemiec mentioned on his blog that Lampre used cryo-saunas during last Giro, so you are totally right with your point. |
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| Jacdk |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:27
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Alakagom wrote:
Stage 6, Tirreno.
His last relatively bad day this season.
I wish my bad days was like that 
Other riders loose min´s on their bad day, Froome looses 30-50sec
Edited by Jacdk on 17-07-2013 22:27
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| issoisso |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:39
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mb2612 wrote:
I am very interested to see how Froome's time measures up to Sastre's tomorrow.
Probably minutes faster just like on the other climbs
Vaughters called 2008 the only race he's ever seen with proper testing. Then Patrice Clerc was fired because how dare he subject the riders to proper tests?
Tons of positives, and slooooow times up the climbs.
2006
1. Landis 38:36
2. Klöden 38:36
3. Sastre 39:01
2008
1. Sastre 39:32
2. Samuel Sánchez 41:35
3. Andy Schleck 41:35
Yep, he was half a minute slower and won the stage by 2 minutes
Edited by issoisso on 17-07-2013 22:40
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:41
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Sastre's first 3 or 4 km were absolutely insane though. I reckon he did like 490 normalized Watts during 12 or 15 minutes there. Of course he had to pay that later.
edit : here's 2011 for comparison (also in the third week, with some serious climbing before)
1 SANCHEZ Samuel EUS ESP en 41'45" (19,832 km/h)
2 CONTADOR Alberto SBS ESP 41'54" 09"
3 *ROLLAND Pierre EUC FRA 42'22" 37"
4 EVANS Cadel BMC AUS 42'28" 43"
4 CUNEGO Damiano LAM ITA 42'28" 43"
4 SCHLECK Andy LEO LUX 42'28" 43"
4 SCHLECK Frank LEO LUX 42'28" 43"
4 VELITS Peter THR SVK 42'28" 43"
4 *DE GENDT Thomas VCD BEL 42'28" 43"
10 DANIELSON Tom GRM USA 42'46" 01'01"
11 PERAUD Jean-Christophe ALM FRA 42'58" 01'13"
12 DUPONT Hubert ALM FRA 43'37" 01'52"
12 *TAARAMAE Rein COF EST 43'37" 01'52"
12 HESJEDAL Ryder GRM CAN 43'37" 01'52"
12 BASSO Ivan LIQ ITA 43'37" 01'52"
12 LEIPHEIMER Levi RSH USA 43'37" 01'52"
17 *COPPEL Jérôme SAU FRA 44'02" 02'17"
18 DE WEERT Kevin QST BEL 44'17" 02'32"
19 *RUIJGH Rob VCD NED 44'35" 02'50"
20 VOECKLER Thomas EUC FRA 44'53" 03'08"
I figure those marked with an asterisk started the climb at a different time than the leaders.
That was muuuch slower than it's going to be tomorrow.
Edited by Aquarius on 17-07-2013 22:44
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| issoisso |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:45
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Aquarius wrote:
Sastre's first 3 or 4 km were absolutely insane though. I reckon he did like 490 normalized Watts during 12 or 15 minutes there. Of course he had to pay that later.
He attacked, was brought back, attacked again. Hence the speed.
As Riis always made a point of saying often: 'Sastre is far more talented than any of you will ever know'. Sounds like he's talking about a clean rider, no?
Aquarius wrote:
That was muuuch slower than it's going to be tomorrow.
Indeed, tomorrow Froome will be somewhere in the 38s.
Maybe even 37s if he has a good day, which would be Pantani-only territory (and Ullrich once, and Armstrong but that was a TT)
No chance he even comes close to Pantani's 36s
Edited by issoisso on 17-07-2013 22:50
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:48
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Marginal gains on aerodynamics, what else ?  I'm glad I won't be able to watch. That'll save my from eyes cancer. |
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:49
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Froome will win 3 minutes to everyone tomorrow. It's scary just to think of it. |
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