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The Difficult Topics
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 29-07-2016 08:06
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging 
Would you offer yourself as a volunteer Ian? Just asking because this sounds great, but only when the others next to the person telling it are concerned. 
Btw. i agree that some people here should realize that current immigration wawe and problems caused by not ideal integration of immigrants coming to former colonial counties few decades back are separate things. But on the other hand, we should learn from the mistakes of the past and think better about integration into our society.
France is the worst example of bad integration of former "colonial immigrants".
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 29-07-2016 08:14
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging
Would you offer yourself as a volunteer Ian? Just asking because this sounds great, but only when the others next to the person telling it are concerned.
Btw. i agree that some people here should realize that current immigration wawe and problems caused by not ideal integration of immigrants coming to former colonial counties few decades back are separate things. But on the other hand, we should learn from the mistakes of the past and think better about integration into our society.
France is the worst example of bad integration of former "colonial immigrants".
Sure I'm a volunteer.
This world needs a big change. And I'm the first in line to change with it. But I won't do it alone.
When it happens, I'll be first in line, though.
And it's funny to see how "hostile" that post already was received. Really shows how things are stirring within people.
Doesn't look good.
Unfortunately, we're turning into... Modern Man.
And I really don't like that guy.  |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 29-07-2016 08:16
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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I don't think living in MARS' garden is the answer.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 08:28
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging
What makes you think that it's the geography of where people live that make them want to come to Europe? It's their religious beliefs and inability to run themselves as a functioning society that makes where they live a S***hole. Why would that change if they came to Europe? That's why we're in the mess we're in. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 09:21
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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cio93 wrote:
I haven't disappeared, I'm just tired of trying to convince people day in day out, especially when they're foreigners anyway and therefore can't threaten the stability and future of this country by voting extreme right-wing parties in the next elections.
I presented my view and my beliefs, what else should I do. There's nothing to gain here.
Actually, I'm just tired of humanity tbh. Do whatever you want. Believe whatever you want.
When's the first rocket ship to Mars?
I didn't mean you.
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 29-07-2016 11:45
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World Champion
Posts: 10891
Joined: 19-11-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging
Would you offer yourself as a volunteer Ian? Just asking because this sounds great, but only when the others next to the person telling it are concerned.
Btw. i agree that some people here should realize that current immigration wawe and problems caused by not ideal integration of immigrants coming to former colonial counties few decades back are separate things. But on the other hand, we should learn from the mistakes of the past and think better about integration into our society.
France is the worst example of bad integration of former "colonial immigrants".
Sure I'm a volunteer.
This world needs a big change. And I'm the first in line to change with it. But I won't do it alone.
When it happens, I'll be first in line, though.
And it's funny to see how "hostile" that post already was received. Really shows how things are stirring within people.
Doesn't look good.
Unfortunately, we're turning into... Modern Man.
And I really don't like that guy.
It was disliked because it's dumb. Just because people disliked it cause it's nonsense doesn't mean they are racist and hate immigrants.. which seems you imply by ''hostility'
The amount of people on left that seems to think that because you don't want to accept wave of unregistered immigrants into country = instant racist and bigot is quite worrying.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 12:01
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Alakagom wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging
Would you offer yourself as a volunteer Ian? Just asking because this sounds great, but only when the others next to the person telling it are concerned.
Btw. i agree that some people here should realize that current immigration wawe and problems caused by not ideal integration of immigrants coming to former colonial counties few decades back are separate things. But on the other hand, we should learn from the mistakes of the past and think better about integration into our society.
France is the worst example of bad integration of former "colonial immigrants".
Sure I'm a volunteer.
This world needs a big change. And I'm the first in line to change with it. But I won't do it alone.
When it happens, I'll be first in line, though.
And it's funny to see how "hostile" that post already was received. Really shows how things are stirring within people.
Doesn't look good.
Unfortunately, we're turning into... Modern Man.
And I really don't like that guy.
It was disliked because it's dumb. Just because people disliked it cause it's nonsense doesn't mean they are racist and hate immigrants.. which seems you imply by ''hostility'
The amount of people on left that seems to think that because you don't want to accept wave of unregistered immigrants into country = instant racist and bigot is quite worrying.
That's why Britain voted to leave the EU. Everyone who said they wanted to leave was labelled as racist. That was the only argument the remain campaign had.
If they had concentrated on giving a valid reason to remain instead of trying to scaremonger and calling the leave campaign racist they would have won easily. In the end it was a protest vote.
I think in the wake of these attacks, if each EU member was given a referendum to remain in the EU or leave and control their own borders a lot of countries would vote to leave.
The irony is that all of these liberals saying all immigrants should be allowed in are opening the door for the rise of far right wing politics to make a comeback. |
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Posted on 21-11-2024 13:47
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 29-07-2016 12:12
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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ringo182 wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging
What makes you think that it's the geography of where people live that make them want to come to Europe? It's their religious beliefs and inability to run themselves as a functioning society that makes where they live a S***hole. Why would that change if they came to Europe? That's why we're in the mess we're in.
Yeah. Obviously.
That's also what I meant. Walk a mile in their shoes, that stuff. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 29-07-2016 12:15
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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Alakagom wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
I'm still 100% refugees welcome.
Bite me.
Actually it'd be better to get the current people out of the country and just let the refugees settle here. We'll go there and learn who we're judging
Would you offer yourself as a volunteer Ian? Just asking because this sounds great, but only when the others next to the person telling it are concerned.
Btw. i agree that some people here should realize that current immigration wawe and problems caused by not ideal integration of immigrants coming to former colonial counties few decades back are separate things. But on the other hand, we should learn from the mistakes of the past and think better about integration into our society.
France is the worst example of bad integration of former "colonial immigrants".
Sure I'm a volunteer.
This world needs a big change. And I'm the first in line to change with it. But I won't do it alone.
When it happens, I'll be first in line, though.
And it's funny to see how "hostile" that post already was received. Really shows how things are stirring within people.
Doesn't look good.
Unfortunately, we're turning into... Modern Man.
And I really don't like that guy.
It was disliked because it's dumb. Just because people disliked it cause it's nonsense doesn't mean they are racist and hate immigrants.. which seems you imply by ''hostility'
The amount of people on left that seems to think that because you don't want to accept wave of unregistered immigrants into country = instant racist and bigot is quite worrying.
No, no, you misunderstand me.
There is a problem of racism, sure.
But I'm not saying stating there is a problem or not wanting everyone in is by defenition a racist. Didn't say that at all.
Of course practical solutions have to be found for the refugee crisis. Only in smurf-land can we all welcome everyone who wants to be here and live happily ever after.
I'm not a politician, though.
And I certainly don't know the answer.
You can say my statement is dumb. Sure.
But tell you what. They're my feeling and I'm dumb-struck damn proud of them.
Also, I try not to take an online community too serious (anymore).
I voice my more rational, thought-out, literatured opinion in other sources way better.
I just throw something on here.
Please remember that |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 13:50
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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I think everyone agrees that some form of help is needed. A lot of refugees/immigrants do have a valid reason for leaving their country. But the fact is many are leaving simply because they think they can get something for free in Europe.
Letting in anyone without any form of check or identification isn't the answer, as Germany are discovering. Countries need to have the right to say if you don't have ID, If you can't prove where your from, if you can't prove your motives for coming here then you aren't coming in. Simple. It's not racist, it's sensible policy.
That is all Britain wanted before the EU referendum. If the EU had given the UK the power to control it's own borders then we would still be in the EU now. |
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 15:22
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Team Manager
Posts: 6508
Joined: 14-09-2008
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Alakagom wrote:
cio93 wrote:
That says more about your country than about mine tbh.
Why? Why does a country has to accept immigrants they share absolute no culture with? Maybe some people don't want globalist world. Does that mean they are bigoted and racist?
This is what gets to me the most. People are dying like flies in those countries and you don't want to offer them a chance for a safe haven because they might disturb your idyllic little world with their culture? The lack of empathy and solidarity is staggering! That's the main problem in my opinion by the way. Not racism.
And yes, there are some that'll come that are criminals. Potentially a higher percentage that in your native population, I don't know that. But a society that claims to champion moral values, Christian values even, has to be able to cope with that in order to ameliorate the fate of thousands and thousands that have been less fortunate. What good are those values otherwise?
As for the oh so unjust accusation of racism:
ringo182 wrote:
It's their religious beliefs and inability to run themselves as a functioning society that makes where they live a S***hole.
If this isn't a prime example of racism (or whatever the equivalent for a culture or a religion is), I don't know what is. You do make some valid points every now and then. But don't ever complain about being called racist (which you haven't even been explicitly as far as I know here) and then make statements like these.
Also, Alakagom, your cynic comments in regards to Merkel and the attacks that cio pointed out as well are just disgusting. I don't know what makes you think it's necessary to go about it that way, but frankly I don't care anymore. Not my problem. Just had to get it off my chest.
I've loved to write in this thread (I don't know if I'm Mr Refugees Welcome, Paul23). The discussions here have given me a lot, I've enjoyed reading all the different opinions, tossing them around, adjusting my own stance. At this point though, reading, and especially writing, has just become exhausting. If anyone cares for my thoughts, I'm available for a PM discussion, otherwise I'll probably take a step back from this thread for the moment.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 15:52
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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As for the oh so unjust accusation of racism:
[quote] ringo182 wrote:
It's their religious beliefs and inability to run themselves as a functioning society that makes where they live a S***hole.
If this isn't a prime example of racism (or whatever the equivalent for a culture or a religion is), I don't know what is. You do make some valid points every now and then. But don't ever complain about being called racist (which you haven't even been explicitly as far as I know here) and then make statements like these.
[quote]
It's not racism to point out a fact.
Are you saying that religion isn't a major factor for the current issues in the middle east which is directly causing the migrant crisis in Europe?
This is the whole argument in a nutshell. It's impossible to have a debate about immigration without one side resorting to accusations of racism. Every country in Europe should have the right to dictate who it wants to allow in. It's too sensitive an issue to be decided by the EU.
Britain has had high immigration for decades as a result of the British Commonwealth. Immigrants from India, Pakistan, the Caribbean and elsewhere have settled in Britain and been integrated into the British way of life. We have relatively few terrorist attacks when compared to other countries despite the high number of immigrants because it has been done properly, over time with countries that have a historical link to Britain.
The current problem stems from the EU forcing countries to take in immigrants from countries that have nothing to do with them. If they aren't wanted they aren't going to be welcomed. If they aren't welcome they are going to be marginalised and that's where the problem starts.
As I've said, something needs to be done to help genuine refugees. But the EU's open door policy is a disaster waiting to happen, as has been tragically proven over the last couple of weeks. It's not racist to say something is wrong with the system. |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 16:01
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Here's an example. You have a house party. You invite people to come to your house and are happy to have them there because you invited them.
Some of your friends bring people who you don't know but your friends vouch for them so you are happy for them to come as your friends know them. They have a link to you so you are happy to welcome them.
Then a gang of people who nobody knows turns up and expects to be let in to eat all your food and drink all your drink. Would you let them in no questions asked? No, you wouldn't.
That is more or less what the current open door policy is expecting whole countries to do. Yet people are being labelled as racist for questioning this policy and saying that it isn't right. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 16:03
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
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No, you're also not "Mr. Refugee Welcome". The person I'm talking about is also "Mr. Antifa".
But that's not important. I totally get Alak and ringo. Yes they're dying like flies in those countries and that's not a good thing. But bringing them here, won't solve the problem, because it's their "religion"(" because Islam isn't a religion to me, because it's more of an ideology. Just look how it's bounded to laws in those countries.) which causes the trouble. Now we're just bringing the trouble to us. We should focus on improving their countries. Just look what happened within the last year. People start dying like flies over here. 2 years ago, I wasn't feared to go outside and travel with trains, busses and go to big places with lots of people. Today, I'm afraid to go there. Also it doesn't stop at the "normal" people. Just look at gays and the way islamic people think about them. Or women. Mainly, I think, we should focus on the reason, why they come here and fight that reason and not just bring them here. That doesn't make sense. Also I don't believe, that even 50% of the asylum seekers are really fled.
I mean, I have an asylum center in our "city" and they have shiny new bikes, pets, sometimes even cars...honestly, if my country would be in a war situation, I would go "fuck all". I would just run, with some money, some clothes, food and my family. Not including my pets. Pets are far too expensive, if you're on the run. Bikes need to much room. That just shows me that alot of those immigrants must have been like: "Ah...that sucks....let's go to Germany. They have lots of money there."
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 16:12
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Team Manager
Posts: 6508
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ringo182 wrote:
Here's an example. You have a house party. You invite people to come to your house and are happy to have them there because you invited them.
Some of your friends bring people who you don't know but your friends vouch for them so you are happy for them to come as your friends know them. They have a link to you so you are happy to welcome them.
Then a gang of people who nobody knows turns up and expects to be let in to eat all your food and drink all your drink. Would you let them in no questions asked? No, you wouldn't.
That is more or less what the current open door policy is expecting whole countries to do. Yet people are being labelled as racist for questioning this policy and saying that it isn't right.
a) This is the problem. It's not a random gang of people asking for all your food and drinks. It's a group of homeless people who are seeking shelter because there's a massive gang fight and many of their friends have already been shot in the crossfires, while you're celebrating a fucking party. Those are the people you're rejecting. That's what I'm attacking you for.
b) You're not being "labelled" racist because you oppose the refugee policy. Many, many people do, and for valid reasons. You're being called racist because you say those people live in a shithole because of their religion and culture. Deeming an entire religion, culture or whatever unfit for civilization is textbook racism.
Seriously, I'm trying to stop, but ...
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 29-07-2016 16:54
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Culture, religion and its bigot ties to everyday life in countries like Iraq or Syria are at the point like cristian areas in the middleages. That is not racist, that is just fact some people ignore. We had to find the way out of it to build the modern society and i doubt we would do it by massive exodus to another part of the world, resigning on the tries to build our own society, by the inner motivation.
Also my mate cunego, you cant force people to give someone a chance to live in are where he lives. They have same right to have their opinion like you have right to have yours. Yours is not better, just different. If you think that your way is the only way to go and despise people who think otherwise, you are not much better.
Btw. i hate real racist fucks and spent majority of teenage years figting these ideas, being beaten by neonazis countless times...
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 29-07-2016 16:59
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Also i fully agree that we need to help people suffering from war (western countries have large share of responsibility for causing the destability in region btw. - especially USA, who are leaving Europe alone with consequences of their actions), but what war is currently going on in North Africa, the area that many people in refugee crysis come from?
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 17:00
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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cunego59 wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Here's an example. You have a house party. You invite people to come to your house and are happy to have them there because you invited them.
Some of your friends bring people who you don't know but your friends vouch for them so you are happy for them to come as your friends know them. They have a link to you so you are happy to welcome them.
Then a gang of people who nobody knows turns up and expects to be let in to eat all your food and drink all your drink. Would you let them in no questions asked? No, you wouldn't.
That is more or less what the current open door policy is expecting whole countries to do. Yet people are being labelled as racist for questioning this policy and saying that it isn't right.
a) This is the problem. It's not a random gang of people asking for all your food and drinks. It's a group of homeless people who are seeking shelter because there's a massive gang fight and many of their friends have already been shot in the crossfires, while you're celebrating a fucking party. Those are the people you're rejecting. That's what I'm attacking you for.
b) You're not being "labelled" racist because you oppose the refugee policy. Many, many people do, and for valid reasons. You're being called racist because you say those people live in a shithole because of their religion and culture. Deeming an entire religion, culture or whatever unfit for civilization is textbook racism.
Seriously, I'm trying to stop, but ...
But your policy is to let the whole gang in no questions asked, including the ones causing all the trouble, thereby bringing the trouble into your house. My policy is to find out who they are and why they want to come in before opening the door. That's the difference.
And yes, the shithole comment was slightly harsh but it was a response to someone saying the problems were geographical. I was simply pointing out the fact that the problem was the people living there, largely driven by religious beliefs. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 17:11
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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cunego59 wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Here's an example. You have a house party. You invite people to come to your house and are happy to have them there because you invited them.
Some of your friends bring people who you don't know but your friends vouch for them so you are happy for them to come as your friends know them. They have a link to you so you are happy to welcome them.
Then a gang of people who nobody knows turns up and expects to be let in to eat all your food and drink all your drink. Would you let them in no questions asked? No, you wouldn't.
That is more or less what the current open door policy is expecting whole countries to do. Yet people are being labelled as racist for questioning this policy and saying that it isn't right.
a) This is the problem. It's not a random gang of people asking for all your food and drinks. It's a group of homeless people who are seeking shelter because there's a massive gang fight and many of their friends have already been shot in the crossfires, while you're celebrating a fucking party. Those are the people you're rejecting. That's what I'm attacking you for.
b) You're not being "labelled" racist because you oppose the refugee policy. Many, many people do, and for valid reasons. You're being called racist because you say those people live in a shithole because of their religion and culture. Deeming an entire religion, culture or whatever unfit for civilization is textbook racism.
Seriously, I'm trying to stop, but ...
a) Those people aksing for all your food are mostly into gangs themselves.
b)Well, facts are facts, and when the fact is that Islam is not as highly developed as christianity, which leads to those people living in a "shithole", then it isn't really racist. You can't be labeled racist, for looking at the facts.
Also, I was labeled racist and a nazi for saying that we should throw the criminal immigrants out of the country.
Just a few examples:
https://vid.pr0gra...c956e2.mp4
https://vid.pr0gra...adf918.mp4
https://vid.pr0gra...4916db.mp4
https://vid.pr0gra...1bff8e.mp4
And that's just what I found within 3 minutes. There's loads more.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 29-07-2016 17:21
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Culture, religion and its bigot ties to everyday life in countries like Iraq or Syria are at the point like cristian areas in the middleages. That is not racist, that is just fact some people ignore. We had to find the way out of it to build the modern society and i doubt we would do it by massive exodus to another part of the world, resigning on the tries to build our own society, by the inner motivation.
Also my mate cunego, you cant force people to give someone a chance to live in are where he lives. They have same right to have their opinion like you have right to have yours. Yours is not better, just different. If you think that your way is the only way to go and despise people who think otherwise, you are not much better.
Btw. i hate real racist fucks and spent majority of teenage years figting these ideas, being beaten by neonazis countless times...
I want to give you a thumbs up, but I just wanted to let you know, that it's not about the last part with the getting beaten up.
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