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News in October
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 09-10-2008 12:35
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Grand Tour Specialist
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jacknic wrote:
Hehe. I can hear the conspiracy theories loud and clear. The test method is developed on Bispebjerg Hospital so Damsgaard will naturally have a method of avoiding being caught. Thus his teams will be the strongest of the bunch. You're wrong. Doping is useless and for losers. CSC and Astana don't hire losers, so they're stronger than their opponents and they don't dope. |
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 09-10-2008 13:09
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Why do I have a hard time believing Tyler Hamilton to be reformed, well, lets see, maybe its because he feels the need to have an article written about it:
https://www.velonews.com/article/84106...alks-about
Seriously though, I think that Tyler Hamilton winning the U.S. RR Jersey is horrible, but I still found this article somewhat enjoyable. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 09-10-2008 13:15
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What i really don't understand is how someone can dope, and then blindly and ignorantly deny it and say they are clean, and someone set them up etc. And before being caught, come out with all this bull about racing clean, and those dopers are bringing the sport down. That annoys me a little to say the least.
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk]  [/url] |
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| snoep_de_hond |
Posted on 09-10-2008 13:26
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What's not to understand? It''s easier to lie then to tell the truth.
If your cheating and someone comes up to you to ask you what your opinion is about someone else who is caught cheating. What would you say? |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 09-10-2008 14:12
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Well I wouldn't take drugs in the first place. So I'd be honest.
What I was getting at was that I wouldn't be able to live with myself living a lie. I don't know how they can do it. Especially if they come back to the sport and then say it wasn't their fault etc.
Edited by rjc_43 on 09-10-2008 14:14
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 09-10-2008 14:21
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Domestique
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Aquarius wrote:
jacknic wrote:
Hehe. I can hear the conspiracy theories loud and clear. The test method is developed on Bispebjerg Hospital so Damsgaard will naturally have a method of avoiding being caught. Thus his teams will be the strongest of the bunch. You're wrong. Doping is useless and for losers. CSC and Astana don't hire losers, so they're stronger than their opponents and they don't dope.
I know that you are being cincere and not sarcastic in any way, so I'll just say that I agree. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 09-10-2008 14:27
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rjc_43 wrote:
Well I wouldn't take drugs in the first place. So I'd be honest.
What I was getting at was that I wouldn't be able to live with myself living a lie. I don't know how they can do it. Especially if they come back to the sport and then say it wasn't their fault etc. It takes some knowledge of psychology to understand them. They're not common human beings, they're people who won loads of races in lower categories, natural born champions, etc.
Most of them have grown up with the idea that there's nothing wrong with doping, and that every one does it (which supposedly would be fair, even if two people do not necessarily react the same to products).
As they see nothing wrong with it, they do not feel guilty at all, so they don't feel like cheaters. Then they act like outraged innocent people when somebody is officially a cheater (= has been caught red handed). It's quite an immature attitude actually, we've all told our parents it wasn't us no matter how obvious it was when we broke something or did something foolish as children, whereas we went around half in joy half in protest when somebody else had done a blunder. They do the same despite being grown up men. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 09-10-2008 14:32
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I guess that makes partial sense. After doing 4 days of back to back training ready for next years racing season (im on 6 days a week atm...) im feeling you have to be sick in the head to be a pro cyclist. So whats different from being sick in the head to doing drugs. I just wish they weren't about so no-one could abuse them.
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 09-10-2008 14:42
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jacknic wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
jacknic wrote:
Hehe. I can hear the conspiracy theories loud and clear. The test method is developed on Bispebjerg Hospital so Damsgaard will naturally have a method of avoiding being caught. Thus his teams will be the strongest of the bunch. You're wrong. Doping is useless and for losers. CSC and Astana don't hire losers, so they're stronger than their opponents and they don't dope.
I know that you are being cincere and not sarcastic in any way, so I'll just say that I agree. More seriously, if we mustn't imply there's a doping aspect there, then how can we explain that CSC and Astana are stronger than their opponents who get caught with dope ?
Their material ? All bikes weigh the same, the difference in terms of output is very small.
Training ? Why not, but with transfers and such (there's like 5 or 6 riders leaving and joining such teams every season), methods that are that much more efficient wouldn't be forgotten by riders as soon as they leave the team, it'd get widespread every where in a couple of years.
Tactics ? There's nothing that special about CSC or Astana, the very base of their success is their strength.
Now :
- Since EPO got introduced in cycling, doping has been able to change donkeys into racing horses, Bjarne Riis (hello) being the most blatant example. Doping works and really makes you stronger.
- CSC and Astana main opponents are caught on dope regularly, yet they've never really been as strong as a team
- CSC staff with Riis and Andersen (7 times positive during his career) is not really healthy... Having Cecchini as their trainer till 2005 or 2006 (he's famous for being both a genius of physiology and training, and a dope sorcerer)
- Bruyneel has always been smart enough to avoid having his riders caught, though there are testimonies or evidences they've not always been clean.
If CSC and Astana are clean, there's something that really has to be explained to me. |
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| snoep_de_hond |
Posted on 09-10-2008 15:10
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rjc_43 wrote:
Well I wouldn't take drugs in the first place. So I'd be honest.
What I was getting at was that I wouldn't be able to live with myself living a lie. I don't know how they can do it. Especially if they come back to the sport and then say it wasn't their fault etc.
Well good for you, but first of all they live in a complete other world. You would be surprised at the "doping" they take that is aloud and the "doping" they take that isn't aloud unless you have a doctors note or something like that.
Then imagine that you're a professional cyclist training full time, stretching your limits and still getting passed left and right by riders who you competed with at the same level when you still were a junior. The team you are riding for isn't happy about your results and at a certain point your choice is give up (and become a garbageman) or give in (and dope). So you decide why don't I at least try it. Suddenly you can compete, win some sort of race, get a new contract and are living your dream.
The only thing you have to do for it is be a bit careful not to get got and lie a little to the outside world. So why not? You're not the only one 'lying'. In fact you had no choice, this was your only change to survive in the world of cycling.
And what is the worst that could happen? Getting got? Well that would suck, but if so you'll go back to being a garbageman, so what do you have to lose?
edit:
I was very late with my reaction (I was on the phone for some time), so I missed Aquarius his story. And I totally agree top athletes are winners and will do everything to be the best and stay the best. Cheating is one of those things, but I wouldn't call all riders using dope sick or mental cases. As Aquarius pointed out we've all lied and acted innocent when accused. I wouldn't call that sick, I would call that human nature.
Edited by snoep_de_hond on 09-10-2008 15:35
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 14:50
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| Rin |
Posted on 09-10-2008 15:11
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Small Tour Specialist
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Stefan Schumachers house was raided by the police today , tomorrow Stefan Schumacher gives a declaration |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 09-10-2008 15:44
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More seriously, if we mustn't imply there's a doping aspect there, then how can we explain that CSC and Astana are stronger than their opponents who get caught with dope ?
You are very welcome to imply they are doped. What you sometimes do is present your oppinion as though it was a proven fact. It is not. And again I must remind you that one team has to be the best. This season it was Caisse. The two before it was CSC.
Their material ? All bikes weigh the same, the difference in terms of output is very small.
Training ? Why not, but with transfers and such (there's like 5 or 6 riders leaving and joining such teams every season), methods that are that much more efficient wouldn't be forgotten by riders as soon as they leave the team, it'd get widespread every where in a couple of years.
Tactics ? There's nothing that special about CSC or Astana, the very base of their success is their strength.
I can't say what it is honestly. But could it be that the quality of their riders are just generally higher than other teams? And I don't mean just the captains. I mean down to the 9th rider who is getting the water and then dropping off. Besides some riders who have left CSC has gone on to do bigger things on their new teams (Gerdeman and Vande Velde), so you can't really conclude that CSC are better only due to doping. (I don't have the same amount of knowledge about Astana as of CSC so I'll leave them out for now).
- Since EPO got introduced in cycling, doping has been able to change donkeys into racing horses, Bjarne Riis (hello) being the most blatant example. Doping works and really makes you stronger.
- CSC and Astana main opponents are caught on dope regularly, yet they've never really been as strong as a team
- CSC staff with Riis and Andersen (7 times positive during his career) is not really healthy... Having Cecchini as their trainer till 2005 or 2006 (he's famous for being both a genius of physiology and training, and a dope sorcerer)
- Bruyneel has always been smart enough to avoid having his riders caught, though there are testimonies or evidences they've not always been clean.
If CSC and Astana are clean, there's something that really has to be explained to me.
That is an interesting question and again one can only speculate. First of; who are those main opponents that are regularly caught? Out of their direct competition Ricco has been caught this year. Who else? I for one think that CSC may have had doped riders up until as late as Bjarne Riis' doping admittance. I doubt it was a team system though. Remember that even Jachshe said that Riis knew about his doping. He didn't say that it was a team programme. If you choose to trust him that is. Post Damsgaard I find it really hard to believe that the team is doped up. Why would he risk his profesional integriry by helping a team cheat? To me it doesn't add up. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 09-10-2008 16:17
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Posts: 6716
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snoep_de_hond wrote:
rjc_43 wrote:
Well I wouldn't take drugs in the first place. So I'd be honest.
What I was getting at was that I wouldn't be able to live with myself living a lie. I don't know how they can do it. Especially if they come back to the sport and then say it wasn't their fault etc.
Well good for you, but first of all they live in a complete other world. You would be surprised at the "doping" they take that is aloud and the "doping" they take that isn't aloud unless you have a doctors note or something like that.
Then imagine that you're a professional cyclist training full time, stretching your limits and still getting passed left and right by riders who you competed with at the same level when you still were a junior. The team you are riding for isn't happy about your results and at a certain point your choice is give up (and become a garbageman) or give in (and dope). So you decide why don't I at least try it. Suddenly you can compete, win some sort of race, get a new contract and are living your dream.
The only thing you have to do for it is be a bit careful not to get got and lie a little to the outside world. So why not? You're not the only one 'lying'. In fact you had no choice, this was your only change to survive in the world of cycling.
And what is the worst that could happen? Getting got? Well that would suck, but if so you'll go back to being a garbageman, so what do you have to lose?
Damn! You've got me. Where do I sign up?
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 09-10-2008 16:19
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Tour de France Champion
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About Damsgaard, I don't think that people believe that he's helping the team with doping. His methods just don't work well enough to catch the dopers. That's what I think anyway.
Other than that, one question: How do you conclude that Caisse was the best team this season? Based on the Pro Tour rankings? The Pro Tour which this season didn't include any - or only very few - of the important races?  |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 09-10-2008 16:24
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World Champion
Posts: 10018
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The test for the detection of autologous blood transfers is pretty huge.
As issoisso says, that's another major doping product down.
The problem is, no test for HGH, and their are probably drugs out their we've never even heard of.
But their appears, finally, to be some headway being made into the fight against doping 
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 09-10-2008 16:41
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
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jacknic wrote:
You are very welcome to imply they are doped. What you sometimes do is present your oppinion as though it was a proven fact. It is not.
Who am I ? In the end I'm nobody but a random guy on an internet forum, what I say cannot be something else than an opinion.
Of course some opinions are more valuable than others.  |
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| Setzel |
Posted on 09-10-2008 16:48
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[protect=Aquarius] I just like aquarius style and he is very nice and you really learn something from somebody who did cycling and he knows the sport pretty damn well, and i like the part when he starts doped doped doped , and then confirmed and he just smiles i knew it and other people oh nooo he was my fav he can not do that because ...(shitty excuses)
He is not making any acusation unfounded he always comes like isso with clues and hints isso and aquarius can speak a whole week about this topic and i will glady listen them  [/protect]
Edited by Setzel on 09-10-2008 16:50
Eating my daily Breakfast at 9 pm
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| issoisso |
Posted on 09-10-2008 16:52
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Tour de France Champion
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jacknic wrote:
Remember that even Jachshe said that Riis knew about his doping. He didn't say that it was a team programme.
On the contrary. Jaksche even said Riis “wanted to go in a different direction with doping and not rely so much on the cortico that all riders on the team were using” (after the 2004 season) |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 09-10-2008 17:47
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Setzel wrote:
[protect=Aquarius] I just like aquarius style and he is very nice and you really learn something from somebody who did cycling and he knows the sport pretty damn well, and i like the part when he starts doped doped doped , and then confirmed and he just smiles i knew it and other people oh nooo he was my fav he can not do that because ...(shitty excuses)
He is not making any acusation unfounded he always comes like isso with clues and hints isso and aquarius can speak a whole week about this topic and i will glady listen them [/protect]
And I will gladly debate them any day. I feel they need some opposition on these boards. |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 09-10-2008 17:51
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Domestique
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issoisso wrote:
jacknic wrote:
Remember that even Jachshe said that Riis knew about his doping. He didn't say that it was a team programme.
On the contrary. Jaksche even said Riis “wanted to go in a different direction with doping and not rely so much on the cortico that all riders on the team were using” (after the 2004 season)
Ok you may have gotten me there. But now we can play "who is the liar?". Bjarne Riis who doped and ultimately admitted it but still has something to gain by concealing the truth. Or Jörg Jaksche who was caught in OP and is only interesting to the German media as long as he has some sensational stories to tell. |
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