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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-08-2014 11:27
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Whilst I agree that Sagan is not a good a sprinter as Kristoff, Bouhanni and Degenkolb etc guys that were always on 79 and 80 etc with him. The problem with putting Sagan down lower on sprint is that he's never going to contest the 'points jersey' in the TdF something he's won of course 3 times in a row and usually by winning some stages but mostly by being a consistent finisher in the sprints.
By putting him down so low to say 78/77 (as I've seen) he's never going to compete in the points jersey competition and will have no chance of winning it, unless the the likes of Cave, Kittel and Greipel get eliminated in the big mountain stages which usually doesn't happen. |
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| gravus |
Posted on 31-08-2014 12:10
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Junior Rider
Posts: 40
Joined: 27-08-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Sagan sprint no more than 77. He's the most overrated cyclist. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 12:29
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Evel1986 |
Posted on 31-08-2014 12:12
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Amateur
Posts: 5
Joined: 09-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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At stage 5 of the Tour de France this year, Contador was the strongest in the HIll, he was a little bit stronger than Nibali, so pls both the same stat, like 80. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-08-2014 12:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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gravus wrote:
Sagan sprint no more than 77. He's the most overrated cyclist.
For somebody so overrated he's won the points jersey 3 times in the TdF, how do you think a sprinter with 77sp is going to do that? |
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| admirschleck |
Posted on 31-08-2014 12:19
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Team Leader
Posts: 6690
Joined: 11-10-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Sagan needs to be 65 SP. He's such an asshole. I mean, you are not a sprinter when you get 5 podiums and 9 Top Five places at Tour, on (mainly) flat stages...
Now guys, check his results on PCS. He perhaps doesn't have many wins, but guy was Top 5 (mostly on podium, as you can see) in literally 90% flat or hilly (sprint) stages he participated. If you want, you can compare him to guys that are 78 and 79 SP and see that they are nowhere near to him. Yet, you come here and keep saying he's the most overrated guy... Wow.
By the way, please do not use "look at his Vuelta results" argument. He and Cannondale clearly announced that he won't sprint in first week of Vuelta and that Gatto will be their first pick. He's preparing for WC, so that's a smart decision.
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| Dancycling |
Posted on 31-08-2014 12:20
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Under 23
Posts: 94
Joined: 08-06-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Whilst I agree that Sagan is not a good a sprinter as Kristoff, Bouhanni and Degenkolb etc guys that were always on 79 and 80 etc with him. The problem with putting Sagan down lower on sprint is that he's never going to contest the 'points jersey' in the TdF something he's won of course 3 times in a row and usually by winning some stages but mostly by being a consistent finisher in the sprints.
By putting him down so low to say 78/77 (as I've seen) he's never going to compete in the points jersey competition and will have no chance of winning it, unless the the likes of Cave, Kittel and Greipel get eliminated in the big mountain stages which usually doesn't happen.
Yep. This is why we need new attributes in order to make riders race like they would in real life. For example, intelligence, which would allow Sagan to perform as well as he does in the sprints whilst really not being that strong a sprinter. There should also be rider traits such as willingness to compete for green jerseys and such. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-08-2014 12:36
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Dancycling wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Whilst I agree that Sagan is not a good a sprinter as Kristoff, Bouhanni and Degenkolb etc guys that were always on 79 and 80 etc with him. The problem with putting Sagan down lower on sprint is that he's never going to contest the 'points jersey' in the TdF something he's won of course 3 times in a row and usually by winning some stages but mostly by being a consistent finisher in the sprints.
By putting him down so low to say 78/77 (as I've seen) he's never going to compete in the points jersey competition and will have no chance of winning it, unless the the likes of Cave, Kittel and Greipel get eliminated in the big mountain stages which usually doesn't happen.
Yep. This is why we need new attributes in order to make riders race like they would in real life. For example, intelligence, which would allow Sagan to perform as well as he does in the sprints whilst really not being that strong a sprinter. There should also be rider traits such as willingness to compete for green jerseys and such.
I was going to mention that the game attributes don't take rider intelligence into consideration as well and that's the problem with Sagan. But as the game doesn't recognize this I would keep him the same level as sprinters like Kristoff, Bouhanni and Degenkolb which is around 79-80 and even then he's still going to struggle against the likes of Cave, Kittel and Greipel in the TdF points jersey competition (unless you're controlling Cannondale as your team)
I also think of the sprinters as being two types anyway:
The pure stage sprinters like Cave, Kittel and Bouhanni and the game AI usually does this well, but then there are the classics sprinters like Sagan, Degenkolb and Kristoff etc who need big stamina attributes for one day races and if Sagan were at just 77 he's never going to win the Milan San Remo (traditional route) Gent-Wevelgem and Paris-Tours all big sprinters classics.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 31-08-2014 12:38
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| gravus |
Posted on 31-08-2014 13:04
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Junior Rider
Posts: 40
Joined: 27-08-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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So yeah, just give him 85 and he will always win points jersey!... He can't even win a sprint in TDF, so if you want to make game realistic than he should not be over 78 or he will win stages (that is impossible in reality).
"at just 77 he's never going to win the Milan San Remo"
WTF? Wake me up when he wins it. Thats the reason he's overrated, because you talk like he already won it. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-08-2014 14:02
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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gravus wrote:
So yeah, just give him 85 and he will always win points jersey!... He can't even win a sprint in TDF, so if you want to make game realistic than he should not be over 78 or he will win stages (that is impossible in reality).
"at just 77 he's never going to win the Milan San Remo"
WTF? Wake me up when he wins it. Thats the reason he's overrated, because you talk like he already won it.
I said 80 max and not 85, so don't exaggerate! 5 points is actually a huge difference anyway, btw you may not realize it but he has won 4 stages of the TdF over the last couple of years, try doing that on 77/78 sprint!
How can the game be possibly realistic if he were on just 77/78 for the points jersey in the TdF?
Attribute wise he's designed to win races like the Milan-San Remo and Gent-Wevelgem and he's won the second and finished second and fourth in the MSR. You try doing that with lowly sprint stats against other sprinters like Kristoff and Degenkolb. If his competition were the likes of Hutarovich and Bos then it would be a different story. |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 31-08-2014 16:42
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I take all my previous opinions back on Froome and Mountain State, he is nowhere near last year's form. Contador is the strongest this year.
Mountain:
83: Contador
82: Froome, Quintana
81: Nibali, RodrÃguez
Edited by Arberg27 on 31-08-2014 16:48
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| silent_control |
Posted on 31-08-2014 19:16
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Under 23
Posts: 66
Joined: 28-06-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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gravus wrote:
So yeah, just give him 85 and he will always win points jersey!... He can't even win a sprint in TDF, so if you want to make game realistic than he should not be over 78 or he will win stages (that is impossible in reality).
You know... he was a bit unlucky, too. Take a look at stage 2. If Sagan had attacked, everyone would have gone after him. So basically he had to decide whether to use his energy to catch up the guys who were attacking or to stay in the pack and give the win to the late "breakaway".
He was also a bit unlucky with a puncture within the last kms. In another stage he started sprinting a bit too late when Trentin beat him by a needle and in one stage he took Kittel's wheel, but Kittel decided not to sprint, so Sagan got stuck.
I think that the peloton + some misfortunate events were biased against him. Just look at Froome; he's always there when someone falls on the ground, resulting in his fall too.
Edited by silent_control on 31-08-2014 19:20
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| Bosskardo |
Posted on 31-08-2014 20:29
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Sprinter
Posts: 1559
Joined: 07-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
I take all my previous opinions back on Froome and Mountain State, he is nowhere near last year's form. Contador is the strongest this year.
Mountain:
83: Contador
82: Froome, Quintana
81: Nibali, RodrÃguez
Maybe we should wait for the end of season. Otherwise you'll change the stats after every stage 
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 31-08-2014 20:45
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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True  |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 01-09-2014 08:17
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Dancycling wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Dancycling wrote:
matt17br wrote:
There should really be a discussion about Sagan's sprint stat.
I'm for a 78.50.
We should really think about it.
78/83 should suit perfectly, though. His acc stat will completely compense his sp stat.
I would give Sagan 77/85. His acceleration means he can place well but his sprint stat would ensire he doesn't win.
85 is really too much since sagan competes in cobbles and hilly classics, too.
However 77 is too low. 78-83 suits.
Sagan still can accelerate very quickly in hills and cobbles. Sure he isn't brilliant at either but he can definitely deliver the fastest. acceleration of anyone.
But he's already on 83! He will accelerate better than any other classic's rider! |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 01-09-2014 08:38
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Overall upgrade for Andrea Fedi:
FL:71
MO:65 (Giro d'Italia)
SP:69
END:72
RES:70
REC:68
HIL:72
PO:6 |
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| Cossack |
Posted on 01-09-2014 11:21
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Domestique
Posts: 582
Joined: 16-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Dancycling wrote:
2. Nibali is the only of the big four mountain guys who has ever done okay at the Ardennes or any hilly classic. He should be better than the others at hills whilst Contador is next as he performs the best in hilly stages. Nibali: 79 Contador: 79 with lower stamina, Froome: 78 and Quintana 77.
Nibali only successful of them in Ardennes, orly? https://cqranking....ceid=17137
Also Contador was 11th in Fleche 2011 and 9th in Liege 2010.
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| matt17br |
Posted on 01-09-2014 11:24
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Cossack wrote:
Dancycling wrote:
2. Nibali is the only of the big four mountain guys who has ever done okay at the Ardennes or any hilly classic. He should be better than the others at hills whilst Contador is next as he performs the best in hilly stages. Nibali: 79 Contador: 79 with lower stamina, Froome: 78 and Quintana 77.
Nibali only successful of them in Ardennes, orly? https://cqranking....ceid=17137
Also Contador was 11th in Fleche 2011 and 9th in Liege 2010.
You can not take results of 2010 or 2011 really in consideration for a 2014 db I think that Contador and Nibali should anyway be on the same level on HI.
Edited by matt17br on 01-09-2014 12:08
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| TankNL |
Posted on 01-09-2014 18:46
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Domestique
Posts: 440
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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matt17br wrote:
Overall upgrade for Andrea Fedi:
FL:71
MO:65 (Giro d'Italia)
SP:69
END:72
RES:70
REC:68
HIL:72
PO:6
| cyclist_id | CyclistName | FLA | MOU | HIL | TT | PROE | COB | SPR | ACC | DWN | FGT | STA | RES | REC | POP | | 20006 | FEDI Andrea | 70 | 55 | 72 | 55 | 50 | 50 | 69 | 69 | 72 | 74 | 72 | 70 | 58 | 61 |
you talk about the giro...
his results, so 55 in MOU is overrated imo;
Spoiler | date | result | time_gap | race_type | | 1-6-2014 | 148 | 4h38'27" | GC-GT | | 1-6-2014 | 93 | 28" | Sprint | | 31-5-2014 | 133 | 25'17" | finishOnMountain | | 30-5-2014 | 144 | 14'14" | ITTonMountain | | 29-5-2014 | 143 | 31'58" | finishOnMountain | | 28-5-2014 | 157 | 15'36" | Hills | | 27-5-2014 | 101 | 39'33" | finishOnMountain | | 25-5-2014 | 167 | 31'10" | finishOnMountain | | 24-5-2014 | 136 | 27'17" | finishOnMountain | | 23-5-2014 | 17 | 11" | Sprint | | 22-5-2014 | 124 | 08'00" | ITTonHills | | 21-5-2014 | 132 | 18'14" | Hills | | 20-5-2014 | 180 | 08'05" | Sprint | | 18-5-2014 | 168 | 22'59" | finishOnMountain | | 17-5-2014 | 132 | 33'02" | finishOnMountain | | 16-5-2014 | 173 | 03'29" | Sprint | | 15-5-2014 | 141 | 15'08" | finishOnHill | | 14-5-2014 | 169 | 14'48" | finishOnHill | | 13-5-2014 | 65 | 0" | Sprint | | 11-5-2014 | 162 | 11" | Sprint | | 10-5-2014 | 184 | 42" | Sprint |
BTW, this is of course based on my calculation sheet already mentioned in previous posts. So in all we are not far away from each other 
Edited by TankNL on 01-09-2014 18:48
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| Silvio Herklotz |
Posted on 01-09-2014 20:12
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26-02-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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TankNL wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Overall upgrade for Andrea Fedi:
FL:71
MO:65 (Giro d'Italia)
SP:69
END:72
RES:70
REC:68
HIL:72
PO:6
| cyclist_id | CyclistName | FLA | MOU | HIL | TT | PROE | COB | SPR | ACC | DWN | FGT | STA | RES | REC | POP | | 20006 | FEDI Andrea | 70 | 55 | 72 | 55 | 50 | 50 | 69 | 69 | 72 | 74 | 72 | 70 | 58 | 61 |
you talk about the giro...
his results, so 55 in MOU is overrated imo;
Spoiler | date | result | time_gap | race_type | | 1-6-2014 | 148 | 4h38'27" | GC-GT | | 1-6-2014 | 93 | 28" | Sprint | | 31-5-2014 | 133 | 25'17" | finishOnMountain | | 30-5-2014 | 144 | 14'14" | ITTonMountain | | 29-5-2014 | 143 | 31'58" | finishOnMountain | | 28-5-2014 | 157 | 15'36" | Hills | | 27-5-2014 | 101 | 39'33" | finishOnMountain | | 25-5-2014 | 167 | 31'10" | finishOnMountain | | 24-5-2014 | 136 | 27'17" | finishOnMountain | | 23-5-2014 | 17 | 11" | Sprint | | 22-5-2014 | 124 | 08'00" | ITTonHills | | 21-5-2014 | 132 | 18'14" | Hills | | 20-5-2014 | 180 | 08'05" | Sprint | | 18-5-2014 | 168 | 22'59" | finishOnMountain | | 17-5-2014 | 132 | 33'02" | finishOnMountain | | 16-5-2014 | 173 | 03'29" | Sprint | | 15-5-2014 | 141 | 15'08" | finishOnHill | | 14-5-2014 | 169 | 14'48" | finishOnHill | | 13-5-2014 | 65 | 0" | Sprint | | 11-5-2014 | 162 | 11" | Sprint | | 10-5-2014 | 184 | 42" | Sprint |
BTW, this is of course based on my calculation sheet already mentioned in previous posts. So in all we are not far away from each other
That calculation thing turns out to be pretty awesome in the end
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| matt17br |
Posted on 02-09-2014 08:54
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Reserved for reasons I'll only ever know lol. |
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