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News in October
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| kumazan |
Posted on 10-10-2012 17:45
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issoisso wrote:
Fuentes.
Awesome typo. 
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 10-10-2012 18:20
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issoisso wrote:
Deadpool wrote:
Van Impe was a little bit of an opportunist at times, but I'd definitely still place him above Merckx in terms of climbing ability. The thing that sets Merckx apart isn't his pure talent. Both he and Hinault were very talented riders who became GOATs because they added Voigt-level determination and guts to that talent. To give an example with one of Hinault's great rivals, it's one of the reasons Fignon seems like somewhat of a disappointment in retrospect. One of the most talented riders ever, but it took him far too long to learn how to fight, and so he only took three grand tours, when on talent alone he should have had 5-7.
Fignon was extremely dominant before the injury. It was the injury that ruined him (plus the depression, the tapeworm and EPO robbed him of results in different years)
Deadpool wrote:
Oh, and I think isso will agree. I believe he once said (an I apologize if I'm mis-remembering) that in his opinion Van Impe and Fuente are the greatest climbers ever.
I actually don't rate Van Impe as highly as most. Gaul, Pantani, Fuentes. Although naming Gaul is cheating because he could win TTs in the biggest races.
Then you've changed your opinion, because I've gotten into massive Gaul debates with you before, with me being pro and you being con.
Your position was that Gaul's climbing ability was entirely dependent on the weather (awesome in the cold and wet, awful in the hot and dry).
Pantani and Gaul are my top two. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-10-2012 18:30
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Deadpool wrote:
Your position was that Gaul's climbing ability was entirely dependent on the weather (awesome in the cold and wet, awful in the hot and dry).
Because that's exactly what he was.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 10-10-2012 18:36
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issoisso wrote:
Deadpool wrote:
Your position was that Gaul's climbing ability was entirely dependent on the weather (awesome in the cold and wet, awful in the hot and dry).
Because that's exactly what he was.
Should have clarified that. You used that (entirely valid point) to argue against him being one of the greatest ever. You felt someone who lost 10+ min on any mountain stage where it was 32 C or more couldn't be considered one of the greats, because of the inconsistency. I disagreed, and thought it shouldn't be used against his pure talent.
So I guess you've changed your mind. |
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| Wilier |
Posted on 10-10-2012 18:36
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Surely Bahamontes should be in the list of best climbers? |
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 10-10-2012 18:38
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Wilier wrote:
Surely Bahamontes should be in the list of best climbers?
Is descending part of climbing? Remember, summit finishes are a modern invention.
This argument has happened at least 10 times, by the way, with no conclusive agreement any time.
Edited by Deadpool on 10-10-2012 18:39
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 15:26
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 10-10-2012 20:06
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The polka dot jersey is named the "best climber jersey" in French, but "the King of Mountains'" in English.
I guess descending is a part of being the best rider in the mountains (KOM), but it's not when you try to know who the best climber is, strictly-speaking. |
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 10-10-2012 20:09
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Aquarius wrote:
The polka dot jersey is named the "best climber jersey" in French, but "the King of Mountains'" in English.
I guess descending is a part of being the best rider in the mountains (KOM), but it's not when you try to know who the best climber is, strictly-speaking.
It's the main semantic question that you have to decide before you can talk about Bahamontes. Do you take into consideration that he is arguably the worst descender ever when talking about his climbing ability?
I say yes. It's why he's not in my top tier. Fantastic going uphill, one of if not the best ever, but that means nothing if you decide you'd rather have an ice cream cone and someone's line to follow on a descent over having a few minute gap over some of the best riders of all time...
Edited by Deadpool on 10-10-2012 20:10
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 10-10-2012 20:19
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Wait, he was worst than Moncoutié ?  |
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 10-10-2012 20:22
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Aquarius wrote:
Wait, he was worst than Moncoutié ?
Bahamontes was a talented climber but a poor descender, sometimes taking one foot off the pedal to take mountain bends like a speedway rider. He landed in a cactus bush descending the Montserra as an amateur and thereafter refused to descend mountains alone, once waiting at the top of a col in the Tour de France for other riders to arrive. He reached the top minutes before a chase group arrived, and famously passed the time eating ice cream by the side of the road.
Moncoutie is bad. Bahamontes was worse. That chase group included Fausto Coppi and other riders of that quality. Bahamontes gave up a 5 min or so gap because he didn't want to descend alone.
Edited by Deadpool on 10-10-2012 20:22
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| kumazan |
Posted on 10-10-2012 20:23
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He had a mechanical when the whole ice cream story happened.
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 10-10-2012 21:45
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I can understand him, though. When you hit the tarmac, or worse, a cactus, you can easily get frightened of descending. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 11-10-2012 06:34
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The USADA report is in. Definite: Lance Armstrong did use a lot of doping, along with the entire team.
Only Bruyneel is still on his side. It seems as the 7x Tour winners has finally fallen. There's too much evidence for non-believers to ignore now.
Now the question remains: will they strip away his victories (most likely, I guess) and the question I ask myself: should Bruyneel be banned as team manager? |
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| Farmer Sam |
Posted on 11-10-2012 06:42
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Ah but if they stripped Lance of his titles, who could they give it to? Not many credible riders from the era at all in the top 10. Yes, Bruyneel should be banned for ever and ever. I don't want to see him back. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 11-10-2012 06:53
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I guess the Tours would be without a winner. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 11-10-2012 06:54
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The rule says the victory goes to the second, or to the first non caught rider. No matter how ridiculous that is.
Let's hope the concerned riders will find it so ridiculous that they'll confess themselves and won't take those titles. Ok, that part is not going to happen. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 11-10-2012 06:56
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Well then I hope they'd make an exception.
Hate to see titles go to Ulrich etc. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 11-10-2012 06:59
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Ullrich was probably as doped (maybe not with the same sophistication though), but at least it doesn't look like he ever threatened people or organised doping in his team, etc. |
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| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 11-10-2012 07:00
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Ian Butler wrote:
Well then I hope they'd make an exception.
Hate to see titles go to Ulrich etc.
As much as I dislike Ullrich's doping, I'd prefer to have him as a Tour winner instead of Armstrong. Anyone but Lance really.
Obviously the best thing to do would be to leave those seven Tours without a winner, but since it can't be that way, I just want to get Lance's name off them.
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| tyriion |
Posted on 11-10-2012 07:05
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Who gets the wins in the end doesn't matter to me. I have seen those tours, cried every time Armstrong won (Ullrich fan here) but it's so long ago now that it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is that it's finally out. Stuff like this has to come out so current and new riders know there are consequences. You probably won't be able to completely eradicate doping, but by uncovering something this big you at least send a clear signal.
Now we can only hope that the UCI bosses learn from this, retire and make way for a new direction in the sport.
Check out my ManGame team here
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