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Boasson Hagen
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| Calzone |
Posted on 07-08-2009 10:21
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Stagiare
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You really think Wiggins is using doping? Or Cav? |
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-08-2009 10:22
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World Champion
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Calzone wrote:
You really think Wiggins is using doping? Or Cav?
I sure do...
Atleast I believe Wiggins did... Not sure about Cavendish. He isn't that poor going up hills if the pace isn't turned up to the sky... |
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| Calzone |
Posted on 07-08-2009 10:25
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Stagiare
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I can tell that Wiggins secret was losing 6 kilos. If Cancellara would do the same, he would be in top3 in TDF |
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| doddy13 |
Posted on 07-08-2009 10:29
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Grand Tour Champion
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SotD wrote:
Calzone wrote:
You really think Wiggins is using doping? Or Cav?
I sure do...
Atleast I believe Wiggins did... Not sure about Cavendish. He isn't that poor going up hills if the pace isn't turned up to the sky...
The fact is, wiggins lost a LOT of weight. Less weight to haul up the mountain means you will go up faster.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 07-08-2009 10:30
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Classics Specialist
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SotD wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
why can't he develop into a mountain rider? who would have believed that wiggins would finish 4th at the TdF this year.
we had this discussion a while ago when i said that anyone had the ability to become a contender for the TdF if they worked at it. i was mocked and shouted down (similar to when i said Cav would win MSR) but i have been proven right this year.
Imo it only proves that doping is still living up to it's best...
so this is whats it's come down to. everytime a rider puts in a good performance he is instantly accused of doping even though he rides for a clean team and has published all his blood passport results. i know there will always be dopers, but until anyone is convicted, or at least suspected, we have to say well done. there has been no evidence at all to suggest Wiggins has doped at any point in his career so i find your comments very disrespectful for his and others hard work.
why bother watching if your just going to accuse every good performance of being because of dope. if he fails a test then he will be banned like he should be, until then we have to see his performance this year as one of the greatest transformations of all time. |
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-08-2009 10:46
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World Champion
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ringo182 wrote:
SotD wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
why can't he develop into a mountain rider? who would have believed that wiggins would finish 4th at the TdF this year.
we had this discussion a while ago when i said that anyone had the ability to become a contender for the TdF if they worked at it. i was mocked and shouted down (similar to when i said Cav would win MSR) but i have been proven right this year.
Imo it only proves that doping is still living up to it's best...
so this is whats it's come down to. everytime a rider puts in a good performance he is instantly accused of doping even though he rides for a clean team and has published all his blood passport results. i know there will always be dopers, but until anyone is convicted, or at least suspected, we have to say well done. there has been no evidence at all to suggest Wiggins has doped at any point in his career so i find your comments very disrespectful for his and others hard work.
why bother watching if your just going to accuse every good performance of being because of dope. if he fails a test then he will be banned like he should be, until then we have to see his performance this year as one of the greatest transformations of all time.
Nah I really like surprises... Some just don't go in my taste...
Wiggins losing 6kg. Quite some kilos indeed, but the man has never been able to go up, and suddently in 1 year he is top 5 Tour de France. I hightly doubt that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Cancellara doing well if he lost 6 kg's, but he has already shown that he can actually climb to some extend.
1 year ago Wiggins was capable of doing a SUPER prologue of 7-12kms. Anything longer than that and he would lose time...
This year he is good at TT's AND among the top climbers. I just can't see that happen in 1 year to be honest...
EDIT:
And I hardly ever accuses anyone of being doped. Hell I even believed Ricco and Kohl had just grown on me...
When riders that has never been able to climb can go close to the podium than I really gets my senses up firing...
Edited by SotD on 07-08-2009 10:48
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| Stijn_vranken |
Posted on 07-08-2009 11:04
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Sprinter
Posts: 1638
Joined: 28-03-2008
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I see him becoming a good sprinter/TT
and he will get the yellow yersey often in the first week of the tdf
prevent hangovers --> stay drunk
pozzato, basically the most stupid cyclist around
RIP WW. Gone but not forgotten
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| Alesle |
Posted on 07-08-2009 11:19
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Stagiare
Posts: 192
Joined: 30-11-2006
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Voted 21th-60th. Hagen has every chance in the world to become an excellent rider (he alredy is imo  ), but I can't see him ever being an overall contender in a GT. He might have a chance in some of the 'easier' 1 week tours, but that's about it (again, this is just my opinion). |
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| Wyman |
Posted on 07-08-2009 11:53
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Domestique
Posts: 645
Joined: 28-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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SotD wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
SotD wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
why can't he develop into a mountain rider? who would have believed that wiggins would finish 4th at the TdF this year.
we had this discussion a while ago when i said that anyone had the ability to become a contender for the TdF if they worked at it. i was mocked and shouted down (similar to when i said Cav would win MSR) but i have been proven right this year.
Imo it only proves that doping is still living up to it's best...
so this is whats it's come down to. everytime a rider puts in a good performance he is instantly accused of doping even though he rides for a clean team and has published all his blood passport results. i know there will always be dopers, but until anyone is convicted, or at least suspected, we have to say well done. there has been no evidence at all to suggest Wiggins has doped at any point in his career so i find your comments very disrespectful for his and others hard work.
why bother watching if your just going to accuse every good performance of being because of dope. if he fails a test then he will be banned like he should be, until then we have to see his performance this year as one of the greatest transformations of all time.
Nah I really like surprises... Some just don't go in my taste...
Wiggins losing 6kg. Quite some kilos indeed, but the man has never been able to go up, and suddently in 1 year he is top 5 Tour de France. I hightly doubt that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Cancellara doing well if he lost 6 kg's, but he has already shown that he can actually climb to some extend.
1 year ago Wiggins was capable of doing a SUPER prologue of 7-12kms. Anything longer than that and he would lose time...
This year he is good at TT's AND among the top climbers. I just can't see that happen in 1 year to be honest...
EDIT:
And I hardly ever accuses anyone of being doped. Hell I even believed Ricco and Kohl had just grown on me...
When riders that has never been able to climb can go close to the podium than I really gets my senses up firing...
If Bradley Wiggins was doped i would eat my own face!
Have you not looked at his blood values he released from the tour?
Oh and i voted 21-60, but he's a talented boy, if he does loose some weight over the next few years i don't see why he couldn't go higher...
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| Stijn_vranken |
Posted on 07-08-2009 12:07
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Sprinter
Posts: 1638
Joined: 28-03-2008
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I would love to see that wyman(eating your own face)
Edited by Stijn_vranken on 07-08-2009 12:09
prevent hangovers --> stay drunk
pozzato, basically the most stupid cyclist around
RIP WW. Gone but not forgotten
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| Wyman |
Posted on 07-08-2009 12:14
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Domestique
Posts: 645
Joined: 28-02-2007
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Stijn_vranken wrote:
I would love to see that wyman(eating your own face)
Haha so would i, it would be a challenge to say the least xD
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 22:01
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-08-2009 14:08
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World Champion
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Well Armstrong also shows his, but am I the only one who isn't so naive to think that there are other ways of doping than to expand blood values? |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 07-08-2009 14:43
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
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ringo182 wrote:
why can't he develop into a mountain rider? who would have believed that wiggins would finish 4th at the TdF this year.
we had this discussion a while ago when i said that anyone had the ability to become a contender for the TdF if they worked at it. i was mocked and shouted down (similar to when i said Cav would win MSR) but i have been proven right this year.
No you haven't. Not in the slightest.
Your argument was, quite simply "Anyone can win the Tour, the only difference between domestiques and team leaders is the second ones train harder than the first ones".
Which ignores two facts:
1. Quality level varies between riders. Some train harder than anyone else and don't go past being category 3 amateurs.
2. A time triallist like Wiggins turned into a power climber. That's the easiest and most common transition you can possibly make.
Name one sprinter that's turned into a punchy climber. Name one punchy climber that's turned into a sprinter. Name one punchy climber bad at time trials that became a time trialllist.
Name one pure sprinter that became a time triallist.
You can't. You can't magically wave a wand and enhance your genetic potential. And you can't magically wave a wand and turn your slow-twitch muscle fibers into fast-twitch, nor the other way around.
Fact.
The fact that you would suggest any of that is possible suggest a complete lack of any grasp whatsoever of elementary muscular biology.
And your know-it-all attitude made it worse for you. Normally people would explain and inform you. But the way you reacted at the time as if you were superior to everyone made everyone just club you down to earth with a mallet.
Edited by issoisso on 07-08-2009 14:49
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| schleck93 |
Posted on 07-08-2009 14:47
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3715
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*reminds Isso that Petacchi was a climber in his younger days*
BenBarnes wrote:
Thor wears a live rattlesnake as a condom.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 07-08-2009 14:50
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
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schleck93 wrote:
*reminds Isso that Petacchi was a climber in his younger days*
Not a punchy climber like I said. A "steady pace and keep holding on" climber.
And not a particularly good one, either. One who was just as "good" as if Bennati or Freire or Davis or Ciolek trained specifically to be climbers: they could be average at best.
They'd be the level of Andrea Tonti or similar (not the good 2004-2005 Tonti. The current Tonti). Which was the case with Petacchi.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| schleck93 |
Posted on 07-08-2009 14:53
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3715
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Oh bugga 
BenBarnes wrote:
Thor wears a live rattlesnake as a condom.
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| swsquires |
Posted on 07-08-2009 15:02
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Junior Rider
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On the subject of Bradley Wiggins, this article is worth a read:
https://news.bbc.c...168184.stm
People seem unconvinced at his transformation, but what they don't realise is that he is a super talented rider who never really bothered to put the effort in because track was his number one priority. He never trained more than 4 hours and before a Tour just trained for the prologues. Thus he had nothing in the tank for big stages.
I personally believe that there are a number of clean riders at the top level now, Wiggins being one of them.
Cancellara has already stated that he is trying to slim himself down as he believes he can be a Tour rider. I think he even said in a tv interview that he thought he had the ability to at least get into the top 10 one day, if not better.
As for B-Hagen, he needs to get himself into the right team and then find out his capabilities by riding different types of race. The impression I get is that he will be more of a classics man. Why go for a top 10 in a grand tour when you can be winning big one day races instead?
Simon
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 07-08-2009 15:41
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Classics Specialist
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bare with me, this could be a long post mostly directed at isso.
1) no not many riders make a massive transition from one speciality to another, but it has nothing to do with generic build. Firstly, like all sports, cycling is a results sport and teams and sponsors want results for their money. Here's a scenario:
Cavendish: yes i'll join your team. i want £100 000 a month.
DS: thats more then anyone else on the team but i think it's worth it for someone to garantee 25 wins a season.
Cavendish: no, i don't want to be a sprinter anymore. i want to try to improve my climbing and compete in stage races for the overall GC.
DS: There's the door!!!
No team is going to pay a rider to transfer skills when they are good at something already. teams sign riders because they can do a job, not because they might be good at something else if they train (which they will do). Wiggins is a good example. High Road obviously just wanted him to be a lead out man but Wiggins wanted more. He found a team who were willing to support him a hey presto.
Secondly, in this section. If a rider is good at something then why try to be something else? Why would a rider like cavendish or contador or Cancellara try to change if they were already the best at what they do?
thats why you don't see many riders crossing over.
2) Genetics. This whole theory is in my opinion a load of rubbish. yes it will make a difference between two sprinters or 2 climbers, but to say it will determine what type of rider you are is a load of rubbish. look at the best classics riders and where do they all come from? ( or the vast vast majority at least) the answer is northern Europe because they have been brought up in those conditions and so are used to riding and have developed into a certain style.
Now look at where all the best climbers come from? The answer is from countries with mountain ranges because that is what they have been brought up doing and so have also developed into a certain style. it has nothing to do with genetics or muscle build, it's all just what they did in their own country. all it takes to change from a mountain rider into a cobbled rider is to change how you change and your body shape which is easy to do.
3) personally i believe that all cyclist are the same no matter what their speciality, they all just use there legs in a differant way. you can show me all the studies at in the world to disprove me but at the end of the day 30 years ago no-one knew any of the training routines of today and still did fine and in 30 years time people will look back and say what we do now is wrong. it's all just what kind of training is in fashion at the time. Now take Contador and Cavendish. I'm sure isso could tell me their power outputs when Cavendish sprints and Contador accelerates up a mountain. I'm guessing they're probably similar. if they've both got the power then why couldn't they train their legs in a different way to use this power however they wanted. If Cavendish lost weight and trained in the mountains then he'd still have the same power but less weight and better endurance. why isn't it possible.
4) yes i have not got a grasp of biology, but that means i'm asking questions that you wouldn't because you just take what you know as a given and everything else is wrong. as i said, 30 years ago scientist believed something different and in 30 years time some new theory will be all the rage.
and i haven't got a know it all attitude. just an inquisitive one and one that won't be fobed of by being told i'm wrong with no evidence to back up that i'm wrong. all i'm doing is asking a question, offering my theory and waiting for someone to disprove me.
thats what a forum is for.
thanks for reading |
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| schleck93 |
Posted on 07-08-2009 16:00
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Classics Specialist
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1) Hom and Aldag looked at Wiggins power outputs and said he could keep the same ammount of power if even if he lost some kilos, he wouldn't risk his track performance and denied.
2) Genetics is not a theory it's a fact, genetics determinates how tall people can be, how their building is (some people are born chuppy others eat themself into chuppiness). The same way some people are born with lots of shorttichets and others with lots longtichets muscelfibres, longtichets are used in endurance sports like cycling, sprinters have more shorttichestsfibres than guys like the Schlecks. Envoirment as you state is very important to, but just look at Lövkvist a decent climber but from island he's from (gotland) the highest point ain't much higher 10 meters above sealevel.
3) If Cavendish is gonna lose weight it's gotta be muscles, cause he doesn't have much fatt on his body, no cyclists do. So he would lose power in his legs if he lost weight. Wiggins is a diffrent matter read the post above yours and there'll be a further explanation.
Hope this answered some your questions or what ever it is
BenBarnes wrote:
Thor wears a live rattlesnake as a condom.
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 07-08-2009 16:10
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 997
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ringo182 wrote:
3) personally i believe that all cyclist are the same no matter what their speciality, they all just use there legs in a differant way. you can show me all the studies at in the world to disprove me but at the end of the day 30 years ago no-one knew any of the training routines of today and still did fine and in 30 years time people will look back and say what we do now is wrong. it's all just what kind of training is in fashion at the time. Now take Contador and Cavendish. I'm sure isso could tell me their power outputs when Cavendish sprints and Contador accelerates up a mountain. I'm guessing they're probably similar. if they've both got the power then why couldn't they train their legs in a different way to use this power however they wanted. If Cavendish lost weight and trained in the mountains then he'd still have the same power but less weight and better endurance. why isn't it possible.
I don't think it's as easy as "Cav losing weight and getting better endurance".
You have slow and fast twich muscles in your legs. This ratio is largely determined by genetics, but can be modified (within limits) by training. This is NOT fast though. Studies have shown it takes 3-5 years for a training regimine to have measurable differences in the makeup of a cyclist's muscle types.
This is the slow changes in riders that you sometimes see... say like a Hincappie. Hincappie turned from a sprinter to a capable (but not great) mountain helper and great endurance rider, losing a good deal of his speed. Over 5-8 years, he slowly transformed fast twich muscles to slow twich muscles.
But Lance showed us one way to do it quicker. Through his cancer, he lost the vast majority of his muscle mass. Then he came back and built it back up. Because he wasn't change... but rather shed all his muscle and rebuilt it, he was able to drastically change the makeup of the muscles in his legs over a very short period of time.
Genetics ARE a limiting factor... but you can change the makeup. The problem... it's NOT fast... not unless you take the Lance technique (and that still took 2 years... just was quicker then the 5-8 it took Hincapie). |
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