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Rivalry
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| Gizim |
Posted on 25-07-2009 18:54
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Junior Rider
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Plus, Contador is in his prime
Really? To me it seems as Contador is still developing. He's getting stronger as time passes on. And not just physically, he is also gaining alot of experience.
Apart from that, if he'll leave Astana (which he will) and join up with a different team, he'll surely have to work harder. Yet i don't believe he'd pick a team which couldn't secure his future TDF title. He'd still sign up with a good team which is capable to back him up. |
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| Dan_Grr |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:21
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Domestique
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If there were no TTTs, and if Contador was alone, Team Contador, he would win every fucking Tour.
He has been a machine. He wins the 2008 Giro in mediocre form, and does Sunday rides in this year's Tour.
I'm not a fan, I'm a fact stater. |
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| hakab |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:23
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Neo-Pro
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Able to win Giro+TDF or TDF+Vuelt maybe?
What would be a very difficult goal would be to win all three GT's in one season. But can't see anyone else then him with the ability to do it atm. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:27
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Tour de France Champion
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Dan_Grr wrote:
He has been a machine. He wins the 2008 Giro in mediocre form, and does Sunday rides in this year's Tour.
I'm not a fan, I'm a fact stater.
Allow me to state a fact, then: his "mediocre form" in that giro produced the highest climbing powers of his career since (present Tour excepted since we don't have his numbers yet)
His "top form" Vuelta win in the same season didn't compare.
"Mediocre form" my ass. He knew full well he'd be doing the Giro. Brajkovic had it in his site way back in March that he was pre-selected for the Giro. |
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| Cordelier |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:30
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Under 23
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Gizim wrote:
Really? To me it seems as Contador is still developing. He's getting stronger as time passes on. And not just physically, he is also gaining alot of experience.
Apart from that, if he'll leave Astana (which he will) and join up with a different team, he'll surely have to work harder. Yet i don't believe he'd pick a team which couldn't secure his future TDF title. He'd still sign up with a good team which is capable to back him up.
It's hard to see how he could get better than he is right now, though - where could he improve? Climbing? Time Trials? He's already the best there is right now - at least on an individual basis.
If anyone is going top challenge Contador, it's going to be because they have better team support. Evans was the best there was in 2007-2008, but he lost to Contador and Sastre because they had better teams behind them. With Astana out of the picture next year, and depending on who Armstrong gets to support him on Radio Shack - Saxobank should be the best Mountain team next year, so Schleck should have that advantage. It's hard to see where Contador could go to offset that... maybe Garmin, but Wiggins and Vandervelde aren't exactly Armstrong and Kloden (not to mention Leipheimer). Personally, I think he'd be a better fit on Caisse d'Epargne to replace Valverde as the go-to guy. Either way, though, it's going to be a drop-off for him - Schleck is going to be in a better position and Contador is going to be in a harder situation. |
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| Gizim |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:48
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Junior Rider
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It's hard to see how he could get better than he is right now, though - where could he improve? Climbing? Time Trials? He's already the best there is right now - at least on an individual basis.
He truly is the best there is at this point, yet he has made a fair TT progression the past two years. He might be capable to pull it even further upcoming seasons, we don't know yet.
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| Cordelier |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:48
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Under 23
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Dan_Grr wrote:
If there were no TTTs, and if Contador was alone, Team Contador, he would win every fucking Tour.
He has been a machine. He wins the 2008 Giro in mediocre form, and does Sunday rides in this year's Tour.
I'm not a fan, I'm a fact stater.
You can't win races from the Peloton, though, and without team support, you don't get out of the Peloton - no matter how good you are. Contador may be able to beat Schleck one-on-one, but he's not going to get the chance for a one-on-one if Andy has Frank and Arvesen and Voigt and even Cancellara there to counter-attack.
Look at what happened to the Schlecks this year... every time Frank attacked, he had Lance on him. Every time Andy attacked, there was Contador. They got smothered.
Put Contador on a weaker team up against Saxobank next year, though, and the tables are likely to be turned. |
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| Cordelier |
Posted on 25-07-2009 19:56
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Under 23
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Gizim wrote:
It's hard to see how he could get better than he is right now, though - where could he improve? Climbing? Time Trials? He's already the best there is right now - at least on an individual basis.
He truly is the best there is at this point, yet he has made a fair TT progression the past two years. He might be capable to pull it even further upcoming seasons, we don't know yet.
Maybe so... but we already do know that Andy has room for improvement on TT's. If he can close the gap there together with Contador's weaker team on the road, it may be enough to push him over the top - even if Contador is the superior cyclist.
I'm picturing a repeat of 2007 - Cadel Evans was in his prime and Contador was still developing, but Contador's superior team support was what put him over the top. |
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| Gizim |
Posted on 25-07-2009 20:04
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Junior Rider
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If he can close the gap there together with Contador's weaker team on the road, it may be enough to push him over the top - even if Contador is the superior cyclist.
I wonder. All we know for sure is that it'd be more of a "close call" than this year's tour  |
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| Shooting Star |
Posted on 25-07-2009 20:41
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Neo-Pro
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Cordelier wrote:
Gizim wrote:
It's hard to see how he could get better than he is right now, though - where could he improve? Climbing? Time Trials? He's already the best there is right now - at least on an individual basis.
He truly is the best there is at this point, yet he has made a fair TT progression the past two years. He might be capable to pull it even further upcoming seasons, we don't know yet.
Maybe so... but we already do know that Andy has room for improvement on TT's. If he can close the gap there together with Contador's weaker team on the road, it may be enough to push him over the top - even if Contador is the superior cyclist.
I'm picturing a repeat of 2007 - Cadel Evans was in his prime and Contador was still developing, but Contador's superior team support was what put him over the top.
You are exaggerating the importance of a strong team. |
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| Cordelier |
Posted on 25-07-2009 21:10
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Under 23
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Shooting Star wrote:
[You are exaggerating the importance of a strong team.
*L* Then I've done the impossible....
Seriously, who was the person to win without a strong supporting team? Pantani in '98? Even then, he was doping and Ullrich blew it.
A good team is everything - you can't win it if you're not in it. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 11:56
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| Cordelier |
Posted on 25-07-2009 21:18
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Under 23
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I wonder. All we know for sure is that it'd be more of a "close call" than this year's tour
All the more so with Armstrong and Contador on different teams - if Lance brings Leipheimer and Kloden over to Radio Shack with him, he could be the one to beat next year. |
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| Phanekim |
Posted on 25-07-2009 23:16
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Neo-Pro
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this won't matter when andy and alberto are caught. more likely alberto. its only a matter of time. diluca got caught eventually so is alberto. i love cycling but this year has been the hardest to digest. i hoped it was getting cleaner...but evidently i was wrong. |
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| ursul |
Posted on 25-07-2009 23:21
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Protected Rider
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Phanekim wrote:
this won't matter when andy and alberto are caught. more likely alberto. its only a matter of time. diluca got caught eventually so is alberto. i love cycling but this year has been the hardest to digest. i hoped it was getting cleaner...but evidently i was wrong.
dreamong of a clean cyclism... beautiful but utopic!
When Nothing goes rigth, go left...
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| Cordelier |
Posted on 26-07-2009 00:48
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Under 23
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Phanekim wrote:
this won't matter when andy and alberto are caught. more likely alberto. its only a matter of time. diluca got caught eventually so is alberto. i love cycling but this year has been the hardest to digest. i hoped it was getting cleaner...but evidently i was wrong.
What was so hard to digest? Sure there are going to be some who'll want to take the shortcut to success - but you've got to be crazy if you think you can get through testing at the Tour level. They've been testing long enough now - and in enough detail - that they have baseline levels for every rider from the time they turned pro... if they test outside of those levels, they're caught.
It's hard to think of another professional sport that actually conducts more testing than cycling. Sure, it's not 100% pure - there is always going to be cheating - but what sport out there can say it has no cheating?
So Di Luca got caught... so what? To me, that's a sign the system is working. I'd be more concerned with a sport like football where hardly anyone gets caught doping - they don't get caught because they don't get tested to anywhere near the same degree that cyclists do. |
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| Phanekim |
Posted on 26-07-2009 02:11
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Neo-Pro
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Cordelier wrote:
Phanekim wrote:
this won't matter when andy and alberto are caught. more likely alberto. its only a matter of time. diluca got caught eventually so is alberto. i love cycling but this year has been the hardest to digest. i hoped it was getting cleaner...but evidently i was wrong.
What was so hard to digest? Sure there are going to be some who'll want to take the shortcut to success - but you've got to be crazy if you think you can get through testing at the Tour level. They've been testing long enough now - and in enough detail - that they have baseline levels for every rider from the time they turned pro... if they test outside of those levels, they're caught.
It's hard to think of another professional sport that actually conducts more testing than cycling. Sure, it's not 100% pure - there is always going to be cheating - but what sport out there can say it has no cheating?
So Di Luca got caught... so what? To me, that's a sign the system is working. I'd be more concerned with a sport like football where hardly anyone gets caught doping - they don't get caught because they don't get tested to anywhere near the same degree that cyclists do.
just because they don't get caught doesn't mean they aren't doping. what the enw rules have done is made it so the top riders can dope and its getting obvious who's doping and who's not. lets face it, everyone on this forum has figured out who was doping and within the next year or two all of them got caught. |
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| Gizim |
Posted on 26-07-2009 10:39
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Junior Rider
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just because they don't get caught doesn't mean they aren't doping. what the enw rules have done is made it so the top riders can dope and its getting obvious who's doping and who's not. lets face it, everyone on this forum has figured out who was doping and within the next year or two all of them got caught.
It seems to be very hard to assume that good riders don't necessarily dope. Really, if i'd be to think this way there'd be not much fun left 
just because they don't get caught doesn't mean they aren't doping.
Just because they don't get caught doesn't mean they aren't doping, but suggests that there's nothing to prove. |
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| Shooting Star |
Posted on 28-07-2009 21:28
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Neo-Pro
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Cordelier wrote:
Shooting Star wrote:
[You are exaggerating the importance of a strong team.
*L* Then I've done the impossible....
Seriously, who was the person to win without a strong supporting team? Pantani in '98? Even then, he was doping and Ullrich blew it.
A good team is everything - you can't win it if you're not in it.
I don't think even the best team ever could bridge the gap between A. Schleck and Contador. He would easily follow him in the mountains, and even if AC was isolated and Andy sent off Fränk to put pressure on him, there's no real threat since AC would beat Fränk by 5+ minutes overall on the TTs. |
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| marble |
Posted on 28-07-2009 21:33
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Imagine a TTT, Andy Schleck on the greatest team winning several minutes to Contador. Now with improved time trials he could only lose a minute on the time trials and then Contador would have to beat Schleck by minutes in the mountains. Contador isn't unbeatable and it's easier to beat him if he has a weak team. |
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| Shooting Star |
Posted on 28-07-2009 21:46
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marble wrote:
Imagine a TTT, Andy Schleck on the greatest team winning several minutes to Contador. Now with improved time trials he could only lose a minute on the time trials and then Contador would have to beat Schleck by minutes in the mountains. Contador isn't unbeatable and it's easier to beat him if he has a weak team.
I don't think we'll see the TTT for a while now. But if we will, then that changes it for AC of course. However, if we won't, I don't see how a strong team can push AS all the way past AC. Unless you have 2 or more legitimate horses to bet on (like CSC had in '08), a 'strong team' will only get you that far. A good rider on a bad team can still hang on the train of the good team and take advantage of it, and in the ITTs it doesn't matter since they're by themselves.
Edited by Shooting Star on 28-07-2009 21:51
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