Aquarius wrote:
In Africa ? We're supporting dictators to get some stability in what were our former settlements, so that we can keep doing business with them and they keep doing business with us, as soon as we'll stop they'll do business with the USA. When capitalism meets democracy and human rights, well...
rationalize it the way you will, it's still killing people for money and power
Aquarius wrote:
As for the second part, I agree with the patronising part. Generally speaking we tend to live in the past. In many people's mind France is still a rich country with welfare state, n°1 or 2 in Europe, thus they feel legitimate to patronise foreign people, I'd say especially Portugese one as Portugal was regarded as a "poor" country thirty years ago. The world has changed, but many people didn't notice it here, hope they'll wake up before it's too late.
The worst part about that is people thinking that being from a rich country allows them to patronise others.
You're not the only country that lives in a fantasy world. Look at spain: their economy is slowly going into deep recession because the spanish people, as good people as they are, have the mentality that if something is not spanish, it can't be good, thus making investment by foreign companies a suicide move...so companies don't invest in spain.
And as a result, either they change or 50 years from now they'll be the Morocco of Europe...sad, really.
Aquarius wrote:
But all that is kind of out of purpose here, I very much doubt that Americans cycling fans have anything against us because of that, mostly because of what I wrote above (French bashing before and since the second Gulf War, and Armstrong doped and winning).
I couldn't really care, to be honest. I've spoken my mind about this "campaign" by Versus: it's just a marketing ploy. I won't side with it.
Edited by issoisso on 10-06-2008 10:41
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
that scares me very much. do you happen to be holding a banjo, so you can complete the stereotype?
hell no. Actually all around America people hate the French.
We deserved it, cowardly refusing to kick Iraqis's asses because they were hiding MDW (you eventually found them somewhere by chance ?), then picking at Lance Armstrong as a revenge because he owned us at home.
What sore losers we are, really. :cry:
I don't really care about Americans, some are nice, some are not. Actually it's the same with my compatriots, there are fools and there are good people. Same can apply to any group of people...
But, hell, you're probably right, all Americans are cool and all French are stupid. Long live stereotypes, long live stupidity.
Actually most Americans hated the French long before the whole Iraq mess. Most americans who were against the Iraq thing STILL hate the French.
It's really not about politics... it's about the stereotype of the snotty french guy.
Trying to tie it to politics is silly. It's all about stereotypes. Most Americans see the french as the taunting french guy in Monty Python's "Search for the Holy Grail"... and we just want to walk up to him and punch him in the face.
Politically... I agree with France much more than the US. But I still equate France with snotty little pricks.
Aquarius wrote:
But all that is kind of out of purpose here, I very much doubt that Americans cycling fans have anything against us because of that, mostly because of what I wrote above (French bashing before and since the second Gulf War, and Armstrong doped and winning).
Again... it's not about the Gulf war for most Americans. Is dislike of the stereotypical "snotty frenchman".
For whatever reason, we don't have the same problem with many other countries. Plenty of people who didn't support the gulf war aren't viewed that way. Germany was against it as much as France was... but we view Germany as a bunch of middle class beer and sausage people instead of snobby wine and cheese people. We still like Germany (which is odd considering historical context... but there it is).
Aquarius wrote:
But all that is kind of out of purpose here, I very much doubt that Americans cycling fans have anything against us because of that, mostly because of what I wrote above (French bashing before and since the second Gulf War, and Armstrong doped and winning).
Again... it's not about the Gulf war for most Americans. Is dislike of the stereotypical "snotty frenchman".
For whatever reason, we don't have the same problem with many other countries. Plenty of people who didn't support the gulf war aren't viewed that way. Germany was against it as much as France was... but we view Germany as a bunch of middle class beer and sausage people instead of snobby wine and cheese people. We still like Germany (which is odd considering historical context... but there it is).
I'm not old enough on internet (2001) to have a very strong point about it, and I mostly talk with cycling fans, but before the second Gulf War and before Summer 2005 (L'Equipe and Armstrong's EPO positive samples story), I felt it was way much easier for us French people to go along with American people.
edit : @ Deadpool : hadn't you saved us during WW2, Hitler and his friends would probably have taken control over Europe easily, you'd have been the next target had you hidden your head in the sand for too long.
Also don't forget that without us you'd still be an English colony Edited by Aquarius on 10-06-2008 14:56
Aquarius wrote:
But all that is kind of out of purpose here, I very much doubt that Americans cycling fans have anything against us because of that, mostly because of what I wrote above (French bashing before and since the second Gulf War, and Armstrong doped and winning).
Again... it's not about the Gulf war for most Americans. Is dislike of the stereotypical "snotty frenchman".
For whatever reason, we don't have the same problem with many other countries. Plenty of people who didn't support the gulf war aren't viewed that way. Germany was against it as much as France was... but we view Germany as a bunch of middle class beer and sausage people instead of snobby wine and cheese people. We still like Germany (which is odd considering historical context... but there it is).
I'm not old enough on internet (2001) to have a very strong point about it, and I mostly talk with cycling fans, but before the second Gulf War and before Summer 2005 (L'Equipe and Armstrong's EPO positive samples story), I felt it was way much easier for us French people to go along with American people.
edit : @ Deadpool : hadn't you saved us during WW2, Hitler and his friends would probably have taken control over Europe easily, you'd have been the next target had you hidden your head in the sand for too long.
Also don't forget that without us you'd still be an English colony
And with you we'd have been two countries, one of which might still support slavery... as France supported the confederacy in the US civil war. We also get to thank you for vietnam... where the US tried to move in and save France's behind when their forces were destroyed by the vietnamese in the Battle of Dien Bien Phu.
But I will thank France for the Louisiana purchase. The best 15 million dollars the US ever spent.
KurtinSC wrote:
But I will thank France for the Louisiana purchase. The best 15 million dollars the US ever spent.
*aheeem* the Alaska purchase (along with it's oil and mineral reserves)
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
And I'd just like to correct everyone here. The Russians were the ones who turned the tide in WW2, so we should be thanking them. Or in fact Hitler, he lost the Germans the War
I'm sad to tell you Crommy, bu that is a myth. Military historians and experts agree, the Soviet would have been dead beat if the US had not opened the second front in the west. The Germans could very well fight the war on one front, but they defied the words and wisdom of Bismarck decades before that Germany would lose a two front war.
It is however the US we have the most to thank for. We should be thanking them for saving us from communism. Look at the faith the countries in Eastern-Europe have suffered the last 40 - 50 years. Oppression, secret police and totalitarian regimes with none of the values we appreciates like freedom of speech. I don't think anyone here would want that for their country unless they are nutjobs. These countries haven't been experiencing prosperity, economic growth and increasing living standards untill now!
We should be thanking the US for our prosperity since the war, the Marshallplan, the Trumandoctrine, and that are things the Russians had nothing to do with. They did nothing for the prosperity of Europe, they only wanted to exploit and oppress European countries to benefit their own power. So enough of this thank the Soviet.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 22:18
kadel wrote:
I'm sad to tell you Crommy, bu that is a myth. Military historians and experts agree, the Soviet would have been dead beat if the US had not opened the second front in the west. The Germans could very well fight the war on one front, but they defied the words and wisdom of Bismarck decades before that Germany would lose a two front war.
I'm of the opinion that losing the war was achieved by hitler several times, but the biggest blunder was stopping the halt on the Ukrain to concentrate on Stalingrad just because it would be bragging rights, having conquered the city with Stalin's name. If the germans had the Ukraine, the war was theirs. All the oil fields they needed were there
kadel wrote:
Look at the faith the countries in Eastern-Europe have suffered the last 40 - 50 years. Oppression, secret police and totalitarian regimes with none of the values we appreciates like freedom of speech. I don't think anyone here would want that for their country unless they are nutjobs. These countries haven't been experiencing prosperity, economic growth and increasing living standards untill now!
We should be thanking the US for our prosperity since the war, the Marshallplan, the Trumandoctrine, and that are things the Russians had nothing to do with. They did nothing for the prosperity of Europe, they only wanted to exploit and oppress European countries to benefit their own power. So enough of this thank the Soviet.
That has nothing to do with communism. That's authoritarianism. If you see things in a merely left-right mode, you have to put Stalin and Mandela at exactly the same point of the spectre. does that make sense? no, it doesn't.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
It has everything to do with communism. Communism is an authoritarian ideology because it seeks to control every aspect of every humans life! Totalitarianism is in it's nature, that's the reason why communism has failed every time.
And I disagree with you on Hitler's biggest mistake, he had brilliant Generals brought up in the Preussian military school, guys like Jodl and Rommel, but he refused to take their advice. His biggest blunder was perhaps not choking the British for good at Dunkerque early. They would have won the war easily fighting only one front.
I don't see things in a left-right mode, but it is obvious that the US did everything they could to help Europe rebuild while the Soviets did exactly the opposite. This is not a question of left or right but a question about who is your friend and who is not.
In a world where some no longer believe that we can distinguish between simple right and wrong, we need to reject this "dictatorship of relativism," and embrace a culture of justice and truth.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 22:34
kadel wrote:
It has everything to do with communism. Communism is an authoritarian ideology because it seeks to control every aspect of every humans life! Totalitarianism is in it's nature, that's the reason why communism has failed every time.
wrong. Communism is equality. it's utopia. that's why it doesn't work. If communism = authoritarianism, Hitler = Stalin. And their economical plans were completely different. Don't judge communism to be X or Y just because the most well-known examples of communism were X or Y.
kadel wrote:
And I disagree with you on Hitler's biggest mistake, he had brilliant Generals brought up in the Preussian military school, guys like Jodl and Rommel, but he refused to take their advice. His biggest blunder was perhaps not choking the British for good at Dunkerque early. They would have won the war easily fighting only one front.
I agree on the first bit, but they tried all they could at Dunkerque and couldn't do it. Where they could've crushes england and didn't was in 1940 by diverting bombing raids to London when the RAF was very nearly crushed. they allowed the RAF to restock. that was the end of their opportunity.
kadel wrote:
I don't see things in a left-right mode, but it is obvious that the US did everything they could to help Europe rebuild while the Soviets did exactly the opposite. This is not a question of left or right but a question about who is your friend and who is not.
In a world where some no longer believe that we can distinguish between simple right and wrong, we need to reject this "dictatorship of relativism," and embrace a culture of justice and truth.
The problem with that is that you can't reduce everything to black and white. otherwise you're doing what Stalin and Hitler did. It won't end well. No rule can cover all cases.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
I'm sorry, but what your writing is dealing in absolutes. Your saying that America is completely good, whilst the USSR is completely bad. That is just simply not true.
I'm not denying the USSR was a dictatorship that should have been opposed vehemently for all the human rights it ignored, but you can't simply state that it was America who did everything, and America is the greatest.
And that wasn't true communism. It never was communism, never will be communism. It was simply a dictatorship.
The reasons why the Allied forces won WWII are numerous, you can't attribute it to 1 single factor, but the Eastern Front was the turning point, with the Battle of Stalingrad the start of it in January 1943. From then on in, the Soviets chased the Germans back. The Western Front re-opened in June 1944.
EDIT: Issoisso is agreeing with me again Edited by Crommy on 10-06-2008 22:51
Communism is about delusional about equality. It does not seek to give everyone equal opportunities, which is true equality. It seeks to make everyone equally bad, because there is not any system to make everyone equally good. Therefore a communist government has to control all flow of information and all opinions and there is no room for individualism and freedom. That is per definition authoritarianism.
Your notion that Hitler has to be equal to Stalin is in many ways correct, but there is a fundamental understanding in the notion that is just wrong. Hitler and Stalin were both promoters of an authoritarian ideology, however it was two different forms of it. Both Nazism and Communism are authoritarian ideologies and they were both VERY bad for the world and killed millions upon millions of people. Europe has had its day of reckoning with Nazism, but not with Communism to same extent, and that is not good because it misleads people into thinking it's a good system when it has been tested and has failed every time.
Painting everything black and white is a common liberal accusation. But the fact of the matters are that there is good and evil in this world. There is right and wrong and there is a moral. If you aren't willing to defend Western values and moral they will be lost.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 22:52
So when will we see this fantastic real communism then? It has failed every single time because it is a flawed ideology and Marx was misunderstood. He doesn't talk about making everyone equally bad, he talks about giving everyone equal opportunities.
Communism leads to dicatorships, that's what have happened every time, why do you still defend it? It's as horrific as nazism. There is no difference between a communist and nazi.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 22:55
Communism has led to less dictatorships than Capitalism. it's just a more romanticised version to think of it as automatically leading to dictatorship.
Communism won't work because it's a utopia. but it does not in any way lead to automatic dictatorships or anything close to it.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Crommy wrote:
I'm sorry, but what your writing is dealing in absolutes. Your saying that America is completely good, whilst the USSR is completely bad. That is just simply not true.
I'm not denying the USSR was a dictatorship that should have been opposed vehemently for all the human rights it ignored, but you can't simply state that it was America who did everything, and America is the greatest.
And that wasn't true communism. It never was communism, never will be communism. It was simply a dictatorship.
The reasons why the Allied forces won WWII are numerous, you can't attribute it to 1 single factor, but the Eastern Front was the turning point, with the Battle of Stalingrad the start of it in January 1943. From then on in, the Soviets chased the Germans back. The Western Front re-opened in June 1944.
EDIT: Issoisso is agreeing with me again
Where did I attribute it to 1 factor? I did not do that, I said that both fronts were needed to beat Hitler, so we shouldn't thank the Soviet. However we should thank the US because they saved us from the terrible faith of the communistblock countries and because they helped rebuild Europe.
America has in fact been Europe's greatest benefactor in the post-war era and should get credit and praise for it. I can't see that the USSR did anything at all the help people or rebuild countries. It left the communistblock in shambles and it is a horrific ideology that sucks life out of everything. It does not work.
The fight between communism/socialism and capitalism is over. Capitalism won. Communism is dead.
I've been enjoying Kadel's posts so far, but these today scare me. It's not the fact that he disagrees with me, far from it. it's the predetermined "X is wrong, Y is awesome" ideology.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
