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Lance Armstrong fair price to pay
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| matt493 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:16
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alex153 wrote:
matt493 wrote:
I disagree. Yeah Landis did win the tour. But he was caught cheating. I bet a lot of riders cheated to win too but they didn't get caught. Cofidis had riders who were proven dopers like Astana and they are all still racing in ASO races. Astana just had a few dopers that AREN'T ON THE TEAM ANYMORE and they can't go to races.
Kessler
Vino
Kascheckin
Mazzoleni
and I think Im forgetting one more.......that's not a few 
And how many of those are still on the team?
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| issoisso |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:16
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matt493 wrote:
issoisso wrote:
matt493 wrote:
I disagree. Yeah Landis did win the tour. But he was caught cheating. I bet a lot of riders cheated to win too but they didn't get caught. Cofidis had riders who were proven dopers like Astana and they are all still racing in ASO races. Astana just had a few dopers that AREN'T ON THE TEAM ANYMORE and they can't go to races.
It's a different case. Cofidis had one guy caught. Astana and it's previous incarnations, you can field a whole ProTour squad with all the riders that have been caught from them.
Give me a list of riders that are still on the team now that were caught doping. That is all I need.
So you trust a guy with the keys to your house. Someone from his family robs it. You do it again, someone else robs you. you do it again, someone else robs you.
You're telling me you'll give him the keys a fourth time?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:17
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Caught dopers...0
Suspected for it....9 |
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:17
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Masking agents "mask" a large number of things, legal and illegal. There are not positive tests other than for the drugs of his post-radiation therapy, which last time I checked provide no benefit, it's only a foreign substance in the body. |
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:18
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matt493 wrote:
alex153 wrote:
matt493 wrote:
I disagree. Yeah Landis did win the tour. But he was caught cheating. I bet a lot of riders cheated to win too but they didn't get caught. Cofidis had riders who were proven dopers like Astana and they are all still racing in ASO races. Astana just had a few dopers that AREN'T ON THE TEAM ANYMORE and they can't go to races.
Kessler
Vino
Kascheckin
Mazzoleni
and I think Im forgetting one more.......that's not a few
And how many of those are still on the team?
You think the 4 top riders of a team dopes without the manager knowing it? |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:19
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wildcat000 wrote:
There are not positive tests
wrong. positive for corticosteroids in 2000. He got an excuse for "treating saddle sores". I'm not saying he should've been punished. But the fact is that the test was positive.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| matt493 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:20
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issoisso wrote:
matt493 wrote:
issoisso wrote:
matt493 wrote:
I disagree. Yeah Landis did win the tour. But he was caught cheating. I bet a lot of riders cheated to win too but they didn't get caught. Cofidis had riders who were proven dopers like Astana and they are all still racing in ASO races. Astana just had a few dopers that AREN'T ON THE TEAM ANYMORE and they can't go to races.
It's a different case. Cofidis had one guy caught. Astana and it's previous incarnations, you can field a whole ProTour squad with all the riders that have been caught from them.
Give me a list of riders that are still on the team now that were caught doping. That is all I need.
So you trust a guy with the keys to your house. Someone from his family robs it. You do it again, someone else robs you. you do it again, someone else robs you.
You're telling me you'll give him the keys a fourth time?
That has nothing to do with this. If someone on this site makes some rude comments and he gets banned then do you say everyone is on probation. NO. You still haven't given me that list.
alex153 wrote:
Caught dopers...0
Suspected for it....9
Every team has a bunch of suspected riders. That isn't an excuse to ban a team.
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:21
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issoisso wrote:
wildcat000 wrote:
There are not positive tests
wrong. positive for corticosteroids in 2000. He got an excuse for "treating saddle sores". I'm not saying he should've been punished. But the fact is that the test was positive.
Yes, but scientists and dopers alike are in agreement they provide no significant benefit unless taken in mass, which is dangerous to one's health, most likely resulting in death. According to WADA records, it wasn't a significant level and actually the test isn't listed as positive, but "suspicious". |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:22
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matt493 wrote:
That has nothing to do with this. If someone on this site makes some rude comments and he gets banned then do you say everyone is on probation. NO. You still haven't given me that list.
It has everything to do with this. ONCE screwed up and it was accepted in all races (as liberty seguros). Then it screwed up and was accepted again as Astana. Then it screwed up again.
Shall it be given an opportunity to be there again?
Edited by issoisso on 06-04-2008 22:22
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| matt493 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:23
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alex153 wrote:
matt493 wrote:
alex153 wrote:
matt493 wrote:
I disagree. Yeah Landis did win the tour. But he was caught cheating. I bet a lot of riders cheated to win too but they didn't get caught. Cofidis had riders who were proven dopers like Astana and they are all still racing in ASO races. Astana just had a few dopers that AREN'T ON THE TEAM ANYMORE and they can't go to races.
Kessler
Vino
Kascheckin
Mazzoleni
and I think Im forgetting one more.......that's not a few
And how many of those are still on the team?
You think the 4 top riders of a team dopes without the manager knowing it?
Ok and is he the manager of the team now?
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:23
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okay, how about this for a reason. Teams caught repeatedly with dopers are supposed to be suspended from all pro tour races. ASO has just followed the stated rules, not like UCI who has just forgot them. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:23
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Tour de France Champion
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wildcat000 wrote:
Yes, but scientists and dopers alike are in agreement they provide no significant benefit unless taken in mass, which is dangerous to one's health, most likely resulting in death.
Irrelevant. You stated he never tested positive, and that's what I debated.
wildcat000 wrote:
According to WADA records, it wasn't a significant level and actually the test isn't listed as positive, but "suspicious".
If that's the case, then I stand corrected.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:24
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Ok and is he the manager of the team now?
Nope, they found someone who is better at covering up the doping used |
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| matt493 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:24
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issoisso wrote:
matt493 wrote:
That has nothing to do with this. If someone on this site makes some rude comments and he gets banned then do you say everyone is on probation. NO. You still haven't given me that list.
It has everything to do with this. ONCE screwed up and it was accepted in all races (as liberty seguros). Then it screwed up and was accepted again as Astana. Then it screwed up again.
Shall it be given an opportunity to be there again?
Yeah especially since a lot of other teams have dopers too. It is a whole new set-up this year. Basically this team is Discovery the only thing the same is the name. They spend more money on Drug testing than any other team.
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:25
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That's what it's listed in the WADA archives and in numerous sources, except Walsh's book of course. But he has no regard for reliable sources, so I'm not suprised. That is why I said no positive tests, to my knowledge, he's had two "suspicious" tests, but they are most radiation drugs to prevent damage to the liver and kidneys, so it's cancer related and in no way performance enhancing. |
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:26
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matt493 wrote:
issoisso wrote:
matt493 wrote:
That has nothing to do with this. If someone on this site makes some rude comments and he gets banned then do you say everyone is on probation. NO. You still haven't given me that list.
It has everything to do with this. ONCE screwed up and it was accepted in all races (as liberty seguros). Then it screwed up and was accepted again as Astana. Then it screwed up again.
Shall it be given an opportunity to be there again?
Yeah especially since a lot of other teams have dopers too. It is a whole new set-up this year. Basically this team is Discovery the only thing the same is the name. They spend more money on Drug testing than any other team.
That's not really a good argument when it comes to doping
and if my memory serves me, CSC is the pro tour team who spends most at anti doping...
Edited by alex153 on 06-04-2008 22:26
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| matt493 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:26
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3549
Joined: 01-10-2007
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alex153 wrote:
okay, how about this for a reason. Teams caught repeatedly with dopers are supposed to be suspended from all pro tour races. ASO has just followed the stated rules, not like UCI who has just forgot them.
But you can't just pick on one team. All the teams have been repeatedly causght with dopers. There would be absolutely no cycling if that was the case.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:27
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Tour de France Champion
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matt493 wrote:
Yeah especially since a lot of other teams have dopers too. It is a whole new set-up this year. Basically this team is Discovery the only thing the same is the name. They spend more money on Drug testing than any other team.
The point is that it was "a whole new setup" every time. And the same thing happened every time.
As for spending more money on drug testing, you can't know that. people don't reveal their budgets. Also, supposedly they're on the Damsgaard program (who I have as much faith in as Charles Manson, but that's a different story), which means there's at least one other team who they're not outspending in that regard.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| matt493 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:27
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3549
Joined: 01-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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alex153 wrote:
matt493 wrote:
issoisso wrote:
matt493 wrote:
That has nothing to do with this. If someone on this site makes some rude comments and he gets banned then do you say everyone is on probation. NO. You still haven't given me that list.
It has everything to do with this. ONCE screwed up and it was accepted in all races (as liberty seguros). Then it screwed up and was accepted again as Astana. Then it screwed up again.
Shall it be given an opportunity to be there again?
Yeah especially since a lot of other teams have dopers too. It is a whole new set-up this year. Basically this team is Discovery the only thing the same is the name. They spend more money on Drug testing than any other team.
That's not really a good argument when it comes to doping
and if my memory serves me, CSC is the pro tour team who spends most at anti doping...
No I'm pretty sure it is Astana.
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:27
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matt493 wrote:
alex153 wrote:
okay, how about this for a reason. Teams caught repeatedly with dopers are supposed to be suspended from all pro tour races. ASO has just followed the stated rules, not like UCI who has just forgot them.
But you can't just pick on one team. All the teams have been repeatedly causght with dopers. There would be absolutely no cycling if that was the case.
What other team was caught 6 times? |
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