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PCM 15: AI Behaviour
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| Fresh D |
Posted on 29-06-2015 22:52
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Free Agent
Posts: 104
Joined: 08-12-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I played quite a few stages today evening and the problems I described in the previous post are still there.
On flat stages almost everything is okay with the AI, I think. But especially hilly stages are really messed up.
There are almost never breakaways and the sprinters with bad hill stats don't even try to sprint for the intermediate sprint points even if they are at the front of the field that is on top of that often still complete because of the lack of a break of the day. Actually, more often than not nobody sprints for points at all out of the full peloton.
On mountain stages there are atleast breakaways and fights for the mountain jersey but the sprints for the green jersey are still buggy as hell similar to the hilly stages.
Will these issues be fixed in the near future or do we have to live now with this horrible AI for the rest of the year?
Sorry for my rage here but these surely unintended problems completely ruin the game for me and will surely hold me back from purchasing the next iteration of the game in 2016, if they are not fixed.
How hard can it be? Last years AI functions quite normal in these aspects of the 3D-race.
Edited by Fresh D on 29-06-2015 22:55
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| StevenGreen |
Posted on 02-07-2015 09:04
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Domestique
Posts: 571
Joined: 25-12-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Sorry no replay.
- Career mode.
- Throughout the stage/ mostly towards the end as the battle for the stage/gc starts
- The first thing I noticed was that the yellow jersey team won't always do the work in the beginning of stages, a lot of times they just sit back and wait for some other team to pursuit their goals.
Secondly: About 50km to go in a hilly stage. I am in yellow. I still have a few riders doing work, but with low effort(50), so way too slow for the fast chasing peloton. Weird thing though is that as soon as i told my riders who were relaying to just hold position the peloton stopped. as soon as i restarted relaying other teams took over again with a very fast paise.
- well teams shouldn't stop working just because my team did. It is generally weird this year as far as "who is doing the work in the peloton" goes. Teams with no interest in anything do work and maybe chase their own breakaway rider down.. |
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| jonas3344 |
Posted on 04-07-2015 22:05
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Amateur
Posts: 24
Joined: 14-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Just a very strange experience (Pro-Cyclist mode):
Austria-Tour, first stage. A group with 6 riders went early, nobody reacted, had 20 minutes or something. So I went with my rider (who was one of the favorites for the race) and just 3 rider followed me. The peloton didn't react. So in the end 10 riders finished the stage, the rest was taken out. So I'm playing a Tour of Austria with 10 riders.  |
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| icewarrior |
Posted on 15-07-2015 12:19
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Junior Rider
Posts: 49
Joined: 09-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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the AI has some major bugs, that are related to the role system that each rider gets for a race. most of this bugs can be solved by yourself when you control the team, although they still harm the AI controlled teams, but in "be a pro" mode its impossible to fix it, and im gessing that if they fix this role system, things will improve in the AI behaviour.
since i can remember the major bugs in AI came with the role system that decides what each rider will do in the stage, so this is most likely the fault in the game, lets not forget that in older versions of the game if a team had 2 sprinters they would even make 2 sprinting trains one in each side of the rode.
as a quick example:
if you're a sprinter, you never get any members to work for you, but the team mates that ride as support to the team leader will work for you if you are in the top3 favourite for the stage, and will even try to make a train to take you to victory
but if you are the best rider on the team and you get the leader role, the AI most likely will give the sprinter role to a weaker sprinter in the roster, even if you are stronger, and since he most likelly wont be in the top3 for the stage the team mates wont work for you in the stage because you are the leader and not the sprinter;
now if you are the leader, the team only works for you to make sure no one takes your place in the GC other then that they dont care;
only a rider with a role of sprinter will get the order to sprint for the intermidiate sprints, but if there is a breakaway that gets the first place they wont even try to get the rest of the points, because the AI assumes that they will only dispute the sprint if they can win it;
there is no active mountain jersey role, only the "free role", and because of that most riders dont go for that fight, wich makes the game less realistic;
AI will always chase you no matter what, but will gladly let other riders go to a breakaway, to make sure you can get in the breakaway you need to get 1min of advantage, at that time more riders will try to go for the breakaway, and then you need to get over 2min of advantage. at that time the peloton will stop chasing, then try to build up some nice time and then when the peloton starts chasing wait for a 2min gap and atack, this is the most likely way to win in a breakaway;
there is a weird bug in the road NC, because at some countries the favourites are from teams that dont take any sppurt to the rider and since the rider in question is the leader of the team he wont chase the breakaway, now the teams with more riders dont usually have a guy in the top3 facourites so they wont work, wich means that you can get over 1hour on the peloton, its weird, but again i blame the role system for this type of behaviour and not the rest of the AI.
another example of this broken system is that the team always takes a leader, even if it is a completely flat race like in dubai, plus they always take at least one climber for the race, now in the dubai example if you as top sprinter are chosen as leader the team wont work for you, wich is really crazy.
i really hope this gets fixed for the next game instead of only upgrading the graphics, beta testers should really report this types of buggs because you dont need that many 3D races to realise they exist.
one thing that really should be worked out in the AI is the follow option with unless it is a flat stage doesnt work at all, and it should always be allowed so you can have those mountain trains like sky and old uspostal used to have, having in mind that if you follow a team mate he will automaticly protect you as a background action instead of having 2 separate functions.
if they could fix this small things it would make a use impact in the AI behaviour and in the game for that matter. |
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| MacC |
Posted on 15-07-2015 13:02
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Sprinter
Posts: 1594
Joined: 15-07-2008
PCM$: 700.00
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Is it really so bad? I was encouraged by PCM 15 because there didn't seem to be so many complaints this year...
Maybe not enough people are playing it to complain |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 03-12-2024 17:46
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| icewarrior |
Posted on 15-07-2015 16:00
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Junior Rider
Posts: 49
Joined: 09-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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MacC wrote:
Is it really so bad? I was encouraged by PCM 15 because there didn't seem to be so many complaints this year...
Maybe not enough people are playing it to complain
problem is that in the recent years, the same bugs have been reported every year, and things dont get fixed.
cyanide only does new shirts, makes small changes to the ui and sells it as a brand new game.
its really weird for the game to lose quality every year, and i do believe that the cyclist rolesin races that they added a few years ago is breaking the rest of the AI, bringing the hole game down. but unfortunately i dont see it getting fixed.
i for exemple just bought the game for the be a pro mode, which disapoints with the AI in the current state.
we could get a better job done by fans of the franshise.
to be honest i think that the developers of the game dont know much of the sport, and should look for forums like this one to see what they need to fix with the game. |
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| Dee-Jay |
Posted on 16-07-2015 00:33
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Free Agent
Posts: 129
Joined: 20-10-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Isnt the AI locked down by Cyanide so that it cant be modded? Im sure there are lots of people in the community who could fix it if it wasnt. That would help if the devs unlocked it. |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 07:57
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World Champion
Posts: 11397
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1120.00
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- Is it in career mode/stage race mode/single stage mode? Everything
- What happens there? - In breaks of under 5 or so everyone sits up, either on your wheel or attacks you/zero effort if you sit up too
- What would you like to see/What do you think would be "real" cycling? - 99% of breaks co-operating
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| qaiqiro |
Posted on 11-08-2015 17:59
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Amateur
Posts: 4
Joined: 11-08-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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I didn't save the replay or made a screenshot unfortunately.
- Is it in career mode/stage race mode/single stage mode?
Be a Pro mode, 1.2 patch installed.
- What happens there?
I'm alone in a breakaway, and my team decides to lead the peloton to chase me in the last half of the stage.
Those report messages that appear, state that my team were working for its leader: me 
I was caught 2km away to the finish line by the sprinters.
Since then I'm a bit weary to try breakaways again lol
I like broccolis. A lot.
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| kadete |
Posted on 14-08-2015 01:47
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Amateur
Posts: 1
Joined: 11-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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- Is it in career mode/stage race mode/single stage mode? Be a Pro, stage race, patch 1.2
- When does it happen in the replay (KMs remaining) 9~10 km to finish
- What happens there? I was being protected by Nieve (selected on the picture) and on 9~10km to the end he decides to refill ... when he already has 2 full bottles
- What would you like to see/What do you think would be "real" cycling? Well it's nearly the end and he's the only one of my team that is not exausted ... in real cycling ... maybe keep protecting his leader for the last stage hill since it's not exausted not having empty bottles. |
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| servus |
Posted on 24-08-2015 19:26
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Free Agent
Posts: 148
Joined: 19-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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kadete wrote:
- Is it in career mode/stage race mode/single stage mode? Be a Pro, stage race, patch 1.2
- When does it happen in the replay (KMs remaining) 9~10 km to finish
- What happens there? I was being protected by Nieve (selected on the picture) and on 9~10km to the end he decides to refill ... when he already has 2 full bottles
- What would you like to see/What do you think would be "real" cycling? Well it's nearly the end and he's the only one of my team that is not exausted ... in real cycling ... maybe keep protecting his leader for the last stage hill since it's not exausted not having empty bottles.
I think this can't be fixed as Nieve is a helper and he helps your captain with water |
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| Fresh D |
Posted on 01-09-2015 15:31
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Free Agent
Posts: 104
Joined: 08-12-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I've read the weekly news about the AI things so I felt encouraged to post again in this thread.
The thing that still bugs me the most are the way too short sprints in hilly stages and mountain stages that have a flat finish.
For mountainous and hilly finishes with a decent gradient only 1km to sprint is enough because of the reduced tempo of the sprint.
But often a field of 20+ riders is left for the flat sprint and the riders just position themselves randomly and start sprinting at the 1km mark.
Is there a possibility that riders with decent sprint stats like Sagan, Matthews, Valverde etc. place themselves properly like they would do in sprint stages?
And only 1km is definitely too short for the good sprinters to regularly contest the win.
I see Van Garderen and L. Sanchez winning sprints on mountainous stages after a long descent in a group sprint against Sagan and Valverde because of this limited length of he sprint despite seeing how much faster they are
And on top of that, you as human player can start the sprints way earlier and win these flat finishes easily even with the worst sprinters (Basso, Zubeldia etc.)
Could you Cyanide guys please fix these two things?
Edited by Fresh D on 01-09-2015 15:41
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| FreireCyanide |
Posted on 01-09-2015 22:54
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Junior Rider
Posts: 32
Joined: 02-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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interesting thanks.
that's a point we add on the list. those hilly finishes are not easy to manage for the AI and hard to make something realistic with such reduce scale, but that could be better with a smarter positioning of the good sprinters.
btw which stage for instance you have the advantage (if you have a specific stage/race in mind, i'd like to know it) ? (being able to start sprinting before AI), that seems strange to me |
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 02-09-2015 00:01
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4573
Joined: 07-10-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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FreireCyanide wrote:
interesting thanks.
that's a point we add on the list. those hilly finishes are not easy to manage for the AI and hard to make something realistic with such reduce scale, but that could be better with a smarter positioning of the good sprinters.
btw which stage for instance you have the advantage (if you have a specific stage/race in mind, i'd like to know it) ? (being able to start sprinting before AI), that seems strange to me
Well on flat stages I find most of the main sprinters seem to go with 1.3-1.2km left, so if you go with 1.7km left for example you can have an advantage while not losing speed nearing the line.
I also agree the sprint lengths on these downhill finishes should be extended. You can't sprint before the AI but you can position yourself much better than the Valverdes and Sagans and even gain an advantage by attacking at 2kms to go and then sprinting from the 1km mark. |
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| Fresh D |
Posted on 02-09-2015 00:52
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Free Agent
Posts: 104
Joined: 08-12-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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FreireCyanide wrote:
interesting thanks.
that's a point we add on the list. those hilly finishes are not easy to manage for the AI and hard to make something realistic with such reduce scale, but that could be better with a smarter positioning of the good sprinters.
btw which stage for instance you have the advantage (if you have a specific stage/race in mind, i'd like to know it) ? (being able to start sprinting before AI), that seems strange to me
The hilly/uphill finishes are not the problem, I meant the flat finishes of hilly stages.
I just played the first stage of the 2015 Basque Country Tour to replicate my described problem and managed to win the bunch sprint of the ca. 25 riders in the first group with Slagter by exploiting the possibility to sprint 1km earlier than the AI as a human player.
Precisely, I started sprinting with Slagter at the 2,5km mark from the middle of the field and passed all the other riders because they collectively started their sprint only at the 1,5km mark and couldn't catch me.
I encounter this problem regularly, not only on this stage.
Compared to the sprints for the mountain jersey that last 3km's and everyone in the break is exhausted thereafter, the finish sprints are really short.
Should be quite the other way around 
Something like 2,5km for the flat finish of hilly/mountain stages to even out the lack of positioning and 2,0km for the mountain sprint because the first guy in the break always cracks 0,5km before the summit after attacking first(with good fitness and full red bar) and have to let the others pass him.
@froomedog
Flatstages are okay, sometimes the AI leadout man doesn't sprint but thats not so tragic. 1,5-1,7 or so km is where your full bar gets depleted, I think so it's good, that the developers fixed the problem with sprinters sprinting from 2,5km flat out and dying.
You're right, attacking at ~3km to go is another option to easily win these hilly or mountain stages that have a flat ending.
Good night |
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| florian96 |
Posted on 03-09-2015 11:09
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Under 23
Posts: 64
Joined: 24-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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I realised especially before a sprint, when you can hang on a teammate, the AI is doing the same but with impossible acceleration and speeds up to 80 km/h. Even the weaker riders start like rockets and reach some unbelievable speeds when they get from behind the peloton in front.
And all of my riders have slow reactions and acceleration and never come up to that numbers. Buit it looks more real than the AI. This is also happening during the race on attacks, but it's not that obvious.
So I don't think I'm paranoid, but the AI has got an advantage or the gameplay is not balanced. |
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| Saika |
Posted on 30-10-2015 06:10
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Amateur
Posts: 1
Joined: 29-10-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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I am disappointed, I just purchased the game and every time I attack on be a pro, when I form a small group, they never work with me and I have to do all the work.
The same happens on final climbs, when I'm in a small group and try to ride with others, they all wheel-suck.This is terrible. |
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| Ollie23 |
Posted on 07-12-2015 11:19
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Stagiare
Posts: 226
Joined: 26-07-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Saika wrote:
I am disappointed, I just purchased the game and every time I attack on be a pro, when I form a small group, they never work with me and I have to do all the work.
The same happens on final climbs, when I'm in a small group and try to ride with others, they all wheel-suck.This is terrible.
I assume you relay when you're in a breakaway but what is the 'effort bar' set to? I find that when I'm in a breakaway I have to set the 'effort bar' as low as 55 to get the others in the breakaway to relay with me and it works perfectly. Anything over 55-60 and they will just sit on my wheel like you describe.
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| Ollie23 |
Posted on 07-12-2015 17:00
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Stagiare
Posts: 226
Joined: 26-07-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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I basically have two approaches to leading my team in races on PCM:
1) Play on Hard/Extreme and control all riders during the race (choose when to attack, fetch water bottles, sprint, set up the sprint train etc)
2) Play on Normal and set all riders to Auto for the entire race. Here I will just set the pre-race tactics and let the AI do all the racing. They have to choose when to attack, sprint and so on. I set it on Normal because I don't think the CPU should have any advantage over my riders in this mode.
Based on what I've read here so far about the AI I'm leaning towards the 2nd option as it seems like this years CPU is as easy to beat or exploit as last year.
Anyone have other thoughts on how to lead the team during races?
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| mbtail |
Posted on 08-06-2016 02:03
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Amateur
Posts: 24
Joined: 08-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Couple of small things that would improve gameplay in my eyes
1) Passing a peleton should be easier. Even more when it is a calm pace.
Problem now is when you want somebody to refill water, and it's half race, when a peleton is riding calmly, the entire peloton is 1 pack. It takes ages before the rider can bring water from the back of the peleton to the front. It can take up to 20km before it happens.
This is also very annoying at hilly races. Because usually you give a bad rider the order to bring water. Even if you try to make it happen that it happens at flat/downhill, because of the time it takes to pass the peleton he will suddenly try to pass the peleton uphill, what brings his heartrate in the red in no time and really destroys him
2) Windy races,
In windy races, riders will make crazy movement from left to right. This is really annoying when you have a sprint train in the last 15km. The first rider will suddenly make a crazy move from right to left crossing other riders. This way the rest of the sprint train is stuck, because they can't cross the other riders. This way the first rider is riding hard, taking distance alone.
When the rest of the sprint train is finally able to cross the other riders, it's
a) to late to get a good position
b) the second rider ( so first of the disabled sprint train ) will sprint to the first solo rider, making his red bar empty, and the rider behind him also reduces his red bar
So disable crazy left-right movement in windy races, even more when a rider is riding dot |
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