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Breakaways / Peloton AI - your experiences ?
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| Housies |
Posted on 26-06-2013 20:48
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Under 23
Posts: 89
Joined: 31-01-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Kentaurus wrote:
Housies wrote:
I am doing a career with a custom team. But I grant you the riders are continental quality. Therefore I mainly do 2.2 races.
Breakaways rarely suceed there.
In my tour of malaysia (2.HC) I was able to make 2 wins in the breakaway. It were the 2 mountain stages. My riders were behind in the GC, joined the breakaway in the flat section of the race. Having 47 min before the last climb, it was easy to take the win with my average climber.
I gues it is fairly realistic. Why would they chase a minor rider 10 mins behind in the GC?
Well the biggest reason, if you're only 10' back and have a 47' lead, then you going to be the race leader by 37'...
that 47' was a typo obviously. It was 7' which means I was still no big threath to the race leader. |
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| Popeye |
Posted on 27-06-2013 08:46
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Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 03-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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@Malkael
Great post. this is exactly the kind of detail I was hoping for. I am very intrigued that the difficulty level has a bearing on the breakaways success. I really have no idea what influence the difficulty level has on the ai, or even what influence it should have on the ai. None really. The reaction of the peloton should be the same across all levels. The difficulty setting should only effect the relative ease of the players team winning.
@Housies
that 47' was a typo obviously. It was 7' which means I was still no big threath to the race leader.
I did not pick up on that and cited it in my bug list. Thanks for the correction. |
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| Malkael |
Posted on 27-06-2013 09:22
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Sprinter
Posts: 1697
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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The rider examination feature seems a bit quirky at times, considering Rabon of Omega Pharma - Quickstep once said:
"Looks like Omega Pharma are putting their trust in their rider at the front. They are expending little or not energy."
I would dearly hope the "Thought Bubble" made a mistake what with OPQS having no breakaway rider, this being a sprint stage, and having Cav as leader. Or the message the mechanic was trying to get across to the player had that as the best (worst) option, since I am not sure I have even seen something to convey:
"OPQS are expending little or no energy as they think you are doing a fine job chasing by yourself and wish to screw you over, even if the break may survive to win."
To the credit of the other sprinter teams I gave up chasing after a bit and that jolted them in coming to the front to chase. Whether they will be successful or not without my help is another question altogether, as I kind of want to win this stage so want to help chase the breakaway. Be interesting to see if they bother to help if I start relaying again too.
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Glad to be of assistance Popeye, since the game should not just be all about the player(s) since they won't necessarily have the right cyclists selected or cyclists contracted to be a candidate for every stage of every race.
I've got a few theories I am exploring as to why Hard might be finding it a easier to get closer to breakaways, possibly the attribute boosts provided to the AI above Normal difficult allows GC teams often stacked with lots of climbers to chase a breakaway a bit better (improved flat attributes). Since usually sprinters teams have a better success rate at catching the break when they chase due to being loaded with strong flat riders, lead-out men, and sprinters. Try escaping several Tony Martin like riders relaying on the front and it is not going to happen as quite as often, if at all.
Edited by Malkael on 27-06-2013 09:38
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 27-06-2013 09:31
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 801
Joined: 26-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Malkael wrote:
The rider examination feature seems a bit quirky at times...
It is. I'm often in a situation where the gap is reduced due to an intermediate sprint (in TdF), but after the sprint, the main sprinters have formed a small group. Suddenly the peloton stops riding because the sprint teams are "putting their trust in their rider at the front" which causes to breakaway to gain time again.
Spoiler Also - this is off-topic though - I've also seen Contador wheel sucking on a climb because he wants to "leave the work to a favourite".
Or riders like TVG or Talansky losing several minutes because Evans or Hesjedal are in front (with other favourites) and they don't want to ride while they should be battling for the white jersey. |
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| Malkael |
Posted on 27-06-2013 09:47
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Sprinter
Posts: 1697
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Okay disregard what I had said in reply above, and then edited out, about the Peleton shattering less when there are less constant attacks off the front.
The AI sprint teams just absolutely decimated another Peleton trying to catch the breakaway. In my latest test, the Peleton shattered in to several different groups and the front group with the sprinters and their lead-outs were lucky if they contained over 30 men, with the breakaway still 20" in front at the time with under 10 kilometers to go. The front group then caught the breakaway with five kilometers left to go, but then Kern attacked off the front. So then the lead-outs were chasing Kern and preparing to launch their sprinters, with Kern burning out and being caught at about 1.5-2km just in time for the "bunch" sprint.
Overall result the the sprinters took out the top 16, but any talk of the Peleton arriving anywhere near the sprinters was non-existent. Until I reached the results page and the game decided that the gaps were apparently small enough to award everyone but two equal time, freakin' lucky.
Edited by Malkael on 27-06-2013 09:51
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 27-11-2024 15:36
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Bot Agent
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 27-06-2013 10:34
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 898
Joined: 17-11-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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@ Maikael, are you sure the shattering isn't happening simply because of strong winds?
Even in previous versions if the pace of the peloton was really high the peloton would break simply because of the wind. |
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| Malkael |
Posted on 27-06-2013 10:43
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Sprinter
Posts: 1697
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Becoming surer with each test, because I just ran Scheldetour Vlaanderen several times over and the peleton (without assistance) both chased the breakaway down more often and effectively, usually within 10km of finishing on average, all while splintering less despite the stage constantly having windspeeds of 30+ (KMpH?) and a high pace.
Still need to test a bunch of other sprint classics to provide a good set of data ranges, but so far I have a suspicion that in the sprinter dominated races each team is bringing stronger flat riders who are better able to cope with the pace. Since despite the fierce pace and wind the Peleton still had 140 cyclists left, strung out in a line but still bunched together, in it.
Often the weaker flat riders like Betancur and a few riders who hard to chase or maintain the gap to the breakaway for their sprint leaders the ones caught out in any splits in Scheldetour Vlaanderen. With the odd case of a cyclist totally being in the wrong place with the Peleton riding at such speeds.
Edited by Malkael on 27-06-2013 10:59
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| Saevel |
Posted on 27-06-2013 11:14
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Amateur
Posts: 24
Joined: 26-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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So I think the problem is twofold:
1) When the peloton decides to chase down the breakaway, it's too hard to close the gap when the breakaway speeds up (particularly within the last 20km). Whether this is due to breaks not tiring enough or the peloton not being fast enough when riding on high effort needs to be examined.
2) Tweaks are needed in the AI that decides race strategy. To be concrete:
-Riders that have something to race for needs to be more active. That is- sprint teams on flat stages (not just the favourite), white shirt- and gc-contenders in climbs, and riders defending other jerseys. Their teams also need to help out in many of these cases (if not all).
So to summarize what I think would be the quickest way to fix this:
1) A higher general initiative and activity among riders and teams in the peloton.
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2) The potential speed difference of the peloton vs the breakaway needs to be increased, somehow.
Edited by Saevel on 27-06-2013 11:19
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| alek94 |
Posted on 27-06-2013 16:52
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Amateur
Posts: 22
Joined: 04-09-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Saevel wrote:
So I think the problem is twofold:
1) When the peloton decides to chase down the breakaway, it's too hard to close the gap when the breakaway speeds up (particularly within the last 20km). Whether this is due to breaks not tiring enough or the peloton not being fast enough when riding on high effort needs to be examined.
2) Tweaks are needed in the AI that decides race strategy. To be concrete:
-Riders that have something to race for needs to be more active. That is- sprint teams on flat stages (not just the favourite), white shirt- and gc-contenders in climbs, and riders defending other jerseys. Their teams also need to help out in many of these cases (if not all).
So to summarize what I think would be the quickest way to fix this:
1) A higher general initiative and activity among riders and teams in the peloton.
and
2) The potential speed difference of the peloton vs the breakaway needs to be increased, somehow.
1) I think the problem is the breakaway. They have to much energy left after spending the entire day out front. I played stage 3 of Tour down Under and I had the breakaway controlled with about 20 km to go. They had about 1:30 lead on the peleton. With about 10km to go one of the breakaway riders attacked (I think it was C.Riblon). When he attacked he had about 50 sec advantage. Somehow he managed to hit 58 km/h on the flats without any help from the wind. Even a fresh F. Cancellara would strugle to do that for the last 10km. Obviously the peleton couldn't catch him and he won the stage. |
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| Jeremy |
Posted on 27-06-2013 16:59
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Stagiare
Posts: 199
Joined: 12-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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I haven't tried any career or other CPU games, but I've played a bit online. What I do is never let the breakaway gain more than two minutes. I can do this by burning no more than two riders (leaving 6 more to work on the sprint train).
You can do a whole flat stage of 200 kms by relaying with two guys at 75. You use one until he has little yellow bar left, and the use the other.
I think in PCM12, it was too hard to make a breakaway succeed. Maybe they need to find a middle ground. |
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| ThVoets |
Posted on 27-06-2013 17:27
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Stagiare
Posts: 174
Joined: 11-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@alek94: I think you are right.
I also think riders are wasting less more energy in PCM 2013 than in other games.
I mostly play with OPQS and I use Grabsch, Rabon and Terpstra to control the break. I've noticed that they can relay a whole stage on 70-75 effort without losing to much energy. This wasn't possible in previous games.
So maybe breakaway riders are also saving a lot of energy which makes it easier for them to stay away and win the stage.
I was PCM Rulezz in a previous life
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
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| florian96 |
Posted on 27-06-2013 17:34
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Under 23
Posts: 64
Joined: 24-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Saevel wrote:
So I think the problem is twofold:
1) When the peloton decides to chase down the breakaway, it's too hard to close the gap when the breakaway speeds up (particularly within the last 20km). Whether this is due to breaks not tiring enough or the peloton not being fast enough when riding on high effort needs to be examined.
2) Tweaks are needed in the AI that decides race strategy. To be concrete:
-Riders that have something to race for needs to be more active. That is- sprint teams on flat stages (not just the favourite), white shirt- and gc-contenders in climbs, and riders defending other jerseys. Their teams also need to help out in many of these cases (if not all).
So to summarize what I think would be the quickest way to fix this:
1) A higher general initiative and activity among riders and teams in the peloton.
and
2) The potential speed difference of the peloton vs the breakaway needs to be increased, somehow.
I fully agree with him. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 27-06-2013 17:34
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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When I relay in Armada I only have those bronce riders with 72-73 flat maximum like Flens for example.
But even there I can control the gap quite well with 2-3 guys over a whole stage without any help by others or the AI.
So if the AI is doing more than what they do at the moment it should be fine. You just have to play with different % than in PCM12. |
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| ThVoets |
Posted on 27-06-2013 17:37
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Stagiare
Posts: 174
Joined: 11-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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roturn wrote:
When I relay in Armada I only have those bronce riders with 72-73 flat maximum like Flens for example.
But even there I can control the gap quite well with 2-3 guys over a whole stage without any help by others or the AI.
So if the AI is doing more than what they do at the moment it should be fine. You just have to play with different % than in PCM12.
Maybe you are right about the different %'s but if I don't help the break always win, even if I play with a team without a sprinter (euskatel for example).
I was PCM Rulezz in a previous life
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
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| roturn |
Posted on 27-06-2013 17:55
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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I just tested it.
Played a Catalunya stage with Caja Rural.
Cavendish, Goss, Degenkolb, Bouhanni were stage favourites.
The breakaway was nicely controlled by OPQS with a max of 7min.
They caught them with 5km to go, which was close but in the end early enough I guess. 
So Goss won ahead of Cav and Bouhanni. |
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| ThVoets |
Posted on 27-06-2013 18:09
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Stagiare
Posts: 174
Joined: 11-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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5km is pretty late if you ask me 
I was PCM Rulezz in a previous life
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 27-06-2013 18:14
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 801
Joined: 26-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Something else I noticed regarding breakaways is that the first attack is often the right one. In PCM12 (which is the only PCM I've played other than 13), there would be several attacks which caused initial breakaways to be reeled in again. |
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| ThVoets |
Posted on 27-06-2013 18:16
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Stagiare
Posts: 174
Joined: 11-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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MartijnVDD wrote:
Something else I noticed regarding breakaways is that the first attack is often the right one. In PCM12 (which is the only PCM I've played other than 13), there would be several attacks which caused initial breakaways to be reeled in again.
I noticed that too
I was PCM Rulezz in a previous life
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
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| roturn |
Posted on 27-06-2013 18:21
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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True. But it was just one single test stage for me now. And the stage had some difficulties like a split with half of the sprinter teams in the second half.
So more test would be necessary. Plus 5km might be late but not unrealistic. And also it was enough. |
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| Saevel |
Posted on 27-06-2013 21:30
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Amateur
Posts: 24
Joined: 26-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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More tests are definitely not needed to see that there's a major problem here. The magnitude of it is another matter, it doesn't affect every single stage, and it's affected by the actions of the player (which I guess might be the reason why a stunning 47% voted that they think breakaways are not unrealistically strong).
If you want to do something productive, play all the flat stages in TdF and note down with how many km. left to go the breakaways are caught by the peloton, as well as when they really start to chase them. You'll find that there's a pretty specific part which is really unrealistic.
Edited by Saevel on 27-06-2013 21:32
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