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A little literature...
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 17:40
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mattiasgt wrote:
Addy291 wrote:
Cadel is considered by many to be one of the cleanest in the sport currently,
some obviously don't 
i don't think Pereiro was doped, he only won the TdF because the pack gave him 30mins advantage, had he not got that he would've ended way down the list
Pereiro still managed to follow in the mountains later, so maybe he ate the candy when he saw that he had a chance? 
Certainly
About Evans, I have never heard of anything about him. Yet I'm still convinced that every top rider is doped. |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 18-10-2007 17:49
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Waghlon wrote:
Speaking of Evans: Has there ever been any accusations against him?
Here's my accusation.
It's not humanly possible to keep up with a top GC candidate who's doped unless you are doped yourself.
Contador and Leipheimer doped...
so Evans must have too.
I simply don't believe you can make a podium in an event like the tour where you are competing against a majority of doped riders unless you are doped yourself. The advantage they get is too great to overcome simply by training and natural athleticism. |
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| Addy291 |
Posted on 18-10-2007 17:53
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Grand Tour Champion
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the simple fact that he got dropped every stage of the TdF by Contador and Leipheimer, kind of contradicts your point, but i see where you are coming from
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 18-10-2007 17:55
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I hate the mentality of some so-called fans such as Kurtin. :x
Claiming to like cycling yet accusing every rider of doping at any opportunity. People CAN be TALENTED!!!!
And as Addy said, the Doped guys dropped him often enough.
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 18-10-2007 17:57
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KurtinSC wrote:
Waghlon wrote:
Speaking of Evans: Has there ever been any accusations against him?
Here's my accusation.
It's not humanly possible to keep up with a top GC candidate who's doped unless you are doped yourself.
Contador and Leipheimer doped...
so Evans must have too.
Any proper accusations?
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 18:11
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Tour de France Champion
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SportingNonsense wrote:
I hate the mentality of some so-called fans such as Kurtin. :x
Claiming to like cycling yet accusing every rider of doping at any opportunity. People CAN be TALENTED!!!!
And as Addy said, the Doped guys dropped him often enough.
People CAN also be doped. I mean, the past 20 years of cycling don't exactly make us think otherwise. |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 18-10-2007 18:14
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Yes, but accusing riders of being doped just because other riders are doped is just plain stupid and not something a 'real' cycling fan would say imo.
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 18:19
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Well, instead of being disappointed over and over again I think it's time to realize that it's as good as impossible to compete in cycling on a top level without doping. That's what I think, and therefore I also think Evans is doped. Basically, I don't care much about it - I still enjoy cycling - but I have no reason to trust the cyclists. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 20:51
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| Crommy |
Posted on 18-10-2007 18:22
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Yes, but accusing riders of being doped just because other riders are doped is just plain stupid and not something a 'real' cycling fan would say imo.
Its not as stupid as it seems - doping is designed to put you beyond the bounds of normal human ability - so how can someone then keep up with someone who is then "superhuman", without being doped - I haven't expressed that exactly as I want, but you get the jist
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 18-10-2007 18:39
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SportingNonsense wrote:
I hate the mentality of some so-called fans such as Kurtin. :x
Claiming to like cycling yet accusing every rider of doping at any opportunity. People CAN be TALENTED!!!!
And as Addy said, the Doped guys dropped him often enough.
Well, by that logic Leipheimer was dropped by Contador and Rasmuessen multiple times... so is he clean?
He's never had a bad test... he's essentially a doper by association.
I'm sorry to upset you. I do like cycling... but I can't honestly believe it's a clean sport. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching the races... I just don't hold onto any belief that the riders are drug free. I don't believe atheletes are drug free in any sport where large amounts of money are at stake... baseball, basketball, football (both american and soccer), track and field, hockey and anything else where millions are at stake.
Cycling is probably where I believe a clean athelete might be at the top the least. Why? It's most dependent on pure physical ability. Football, baseball and basketball rely on a lot of skills that can't be improved drastically through drugs. You may hit more home runs on the juice but you won't hit a higher average.
In cycling, it's much more about your "engine". Yes, there are skills involved, but physical endurance, recovery and strength are still the primary factor on winning a grand tour. It's all about who "cracks".
I believe there are plenty of cyclists who remain clean. I just dont think they can finish within 10 minutes of the leaders while remaining clean. I believe there are clean baseball players too... but none of them are hitting 50+ homers a season or throwing 103 mile per hour fastballs. |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 19:03
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KurtinSC wrote:
SportingNonsense wrote:
I hate the mentality of some so-called fans such as Kurtin. :x
Claiming to like cycling yet accusing every rider of doping at any opportunity. People CAN be TALENTED!!!!
And as Addy said, the Doped guys dropped him often enough.
Well, by that logic Leipheimer was dropped by Contador and Rasmuessen multiple times... so is he clean?
He's never had a bad test... he's essentially a doper by association.
I'm sorry to upset you. I do like cycling... but I can't honestly believe it's a clean sport. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching the races... I just don't hold onto any belief that the riders are drug free. I don't believe atheletes are drug free in any sport where large amounts of money are at stake... baseball, basketball, football (both american and soccer), track and field, hockey and anything else where millions are at stake.
Cycling is probably where I believe a clean athelete might be at the top the least. Why? It's most dependent on pure physical ability. Football, baseball and basketball rely on a lot of skills that can't be improved drastically through drugs. You may hit more home runs on the juice but you won't hit a higher average.
In cycling, it's much more about your "engine". Yes, there are skills involved, but physical endurance, recovery and strength are still the primary factor on winning a grand tour. It's all about who "cracks".
I believe there are plenty of cyclists who remain clean. I just dont think they can finish within 10 minutes of the leaders while remaining clean. I believe there are clean baseball players too... but none of them are hitting 50+ homers a season or throwing 103 mile per hour fastballs.
Exactly my opinion. No need for me to add anything here - you're my voice |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 19:35
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when Marc Madiot , aka mr. "everyone's doped" says Evans and Sastre are moral winners of the tour.....I'm slightly more inclined to believe they're clean.
especially when there is no clear indication of anything on their part. I refuse to accuse any rider without what I in my own personal flawed opinion consider pretty damn good associative evidence.
as for comparing performances, here's an argument for the "comparing is idiotic" camp:
Landis' wattage on his famous solo break was 283 watts (if you think that's low, remember it's for a whole stage, not a single climb ). a few days previously, Pereiro gained 30 minutes in a break. the average wattage for the guys in the break was 300.
does that mean Pereiro, Voigt, Quinziato and the younger Chavanel are doped?
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 19:37
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mattiasgt |
Posted on 18-10-2007 19:38
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The watt thing doesn't seem to be so relevant, everbody knows its harder to ride up and down, than just flat.
(Previously) Manager of Koenigsegg
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 19:43
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mattiasgt wrote:
The watt thing doesn't seem to be so relevant, everbody knows its harder to ride up and down, than just flat.
........
I'm going to think you just wrote that pretty fast without thinking and that you never had any physics classes.
it's harder to go as fast because there's a strength called 'gravity' pulling you down. So the strength that you're exerting to move forward doesn't have as much effect. but that strength (which over time is measured as power - in watts) is the same. it just has less effect.
the only thing not taken into account is wind resistance. which is higher on the flat because you're going faster. which if taken into account, supports my previous argument even further. it's also the reason why vertical climbing meters/hour is crap and a horrible way to measure climbing prowess.
Edited by issoisso on 18-10-2007 19:49
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mattiasgt |
Posted on 18-10-2007 19:58
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issoisso wrote:
mattiasgt wrote:
The watt thing doesn't seem to be so relevant, everbody knows its harder to ride up and down, than just flat.
........
I'm going to think you just wrote that pretty fast without thinking and that you never had any physics classes.
it's harder to go as fast because there's a strength called 'gravity' pulling you down. So the strength that you're exerting to move forward doesn't have as much effect. but that strength (which over time is measured as power - in watts) is the same. it just has less effect.
the only thing not taken into account is wind resistance. which is higher on the flat because you're going faster. which if taken into account, supports my previous argument even further. it's also the reason why vertical climbing meters/hour is crap and a horrible way to measure climbing prowess.
Well I know all that(aha gravity, thats why you don't fall down when you are on the south pole), but what i meant was that you can't compare a flat stage with a mountain, pointing on the watt measured.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:00
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Ill leave you 'fans' to discuss and hopefully depress yourselves with the fact that yout think everyone is doped.
But I will always believe a rider is clean until it is proved that they are not. It makes Cycling much more fun and interesting that way.
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:00
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Tour de France Champion
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CrueTrue wrote:
mattiasgt wrote:
Addy291 wrote:
Cadel is considered by many to be one of the cleanest in the sport currently,
some obviously don't
i don't think Pereiro was doped, he only won the TdF because the pack gave him 30mins advantage, had he not got that he would've ended way down the list
Pereiro still managed to follow in the mountains later, so maybe he ate the candy when he saw that he had a chance?
Certainly
About Evans, I have never heard of anything about him. Yet I'm still convinced that every top rider is doped.
I just researched a little, and it appears that Cadel Evans' doctor is ... Michele Ferrari, the blood doping doctor, and the guy who said that EPO was pretty much the same as orange juice Ferrari, the same guy who "treated" Armstrong |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:01
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mattiasgt wrote:
Well I know all that(aha gravity, thats why you don't fall down when you are on the south pole), but what i meant was that you can't compare a flat stage with a mountain, pointing on the watt measured.
again, you've missed my point entirely. wattage is the power developed over a certain time. in this case, adjusted for the weight of the breakaway's stage winner (Voigt in the second example). the terrain has zero effect on the power you develop. it decreases the effects of that power (you move less) but the power is the same.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:02
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Tour de France Champion
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CrueTrue wrote:
I just researched a little, and it appears that Cadel Evans' doctor is ... Michele Ferrari, the blood doping doctor, and the guy who said that EPO was pretty much the same as orange juice Ferrari, the same guy who "treated" Armstrong
where'd you get that?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Setzel |
Posted on 18-10-2007 20:02
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Hmm let me think Rogers with Ferrari triple world ITT champ after nothing
Cadel without Ferrari at Tmobile=>zero after at Predictor increible rider
Eating my daily Breakfast at 9 pm
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