|
Giro d'Italia 2010
|
| SotD |
Posted on 24-05-2010 10:20
|
World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
With EPO, you (ok, maybe not you and me, but a top EPO'ed pro cyclist), your wattage will be higher on the third or fourth climb of the day than on the first one or on a stage with only one final climb.
So yes, EPO totally fucked up the performances in cycling. Also, the number of hours ridden prior to the considered climb for VAM hardly make sense with EPO'ed riders.
This also more or less explains why you get roughly the same performances (by leaders) in the last mountain of hard mountain stages than in flat stages with one final mountain, when those same stages tend to whack clean riders...
Doesn't the fact that the first two climbs being less important in aspect of the overall win play a big contribution?
I know that I wouldn't be able to put a decent result into a final mountain stage, but I do know that I can run 3 laps at 3km, faster and faster, because I am able to push myself just a little bit more in order to beat the time.
Same goes in a soccer match. The first 80 minutes goes with me being more and more fatigues, but as the match comes to an end and we still need a goal I seem to be able to dig deeper and run faster and longer than in the previous 80 minutes.
So I think the competitive aspect is atleast, if not bigger, a better factor.
|
| |
|
|
| CrueTrue |
Posted on 24-05-2010 11:00
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Just one comment: I love Zoncolan. I wasn't here to comment on it yesterday, but ... wow, it seems tough. What a beautiful mountain  |
| |
|
|
| lup_andrei |
Posted on 24-05-2010 11:54
|
Stagiare
Posts: 156
Joined: 28-06-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Interesting to see if Arroyo can hold on, because I suspect he won't lose much time on Basso at Kronplatz,Peio Terme or Verona. It remains only Aprica and Tonale to gain a bigger gap. I'll search the 09 corones time gaps but I remember they weren't so big. |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 27-11-2024 09:57
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 24-05-2010 12:17
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
SotD wrote:
Doesn't the fact that the first two climbs being less important in aspect of the overall win play a big contribution?
I know that I wouldn't be able to put a decent result into a final mountain stage, but I do know that I can run 3 laps at 3km, faster and faster, because I am able to push myself just a little bit more in order to beat the time.
Same goes in a soccer match. The first 80 minutes goes with me being more and more fatigues, but as the match comes to an end and we still need a goal I seem to be able to dig deeper and run faster and longer than in the previous 80 minutes.
So I think the competitive aspect is atleast, if not bigger, a better factor. Well, being also a 10 k runner, and an occasional semi-marathon runner, I guess I can talk about this a bit (although as this is getting off topic, Crue True will eventually blame us  ).
First, if you don't warm up properly, you won't be able to deliver your maximal performance in the beginning.
Then, when you're running, or cycling, you tend to manage your energy carefully, which mean that you'll save energy, and the closest to the end you'll get, the less you'll save, which might result in an acceleration. Though if you could manage it like in PCM (assuming it's still the same as the last time I played it, years ago), you could get a better overall performance with a more steady pace.
Then again, the 1500 m world record is faster than the 3 000 m world record, which is also faster than the 5 000 m record, etc. (and itd be the same if you'd consider the personal best of a given athlete on those distances). So, no, any "normal" sportsman (properly warmed up) should have his performances decreasing with the length of the effort.
Last, in every case, we should observe a decrease of performances in the last mountain finish when it's taking place after a day of mountain climbing compared to when it's taking place after 130 km of flat stage ridden gently (but the last 30 km before the bottom of the climb), yet we don't really see it for leaders (but we see it for supposedly clean riders). |
| |
|
|
| roturn |
Posted on 24-05-2010 12:20
|
Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
|
Plan de Corones 2008 tt
There will be bigger time gaps i guess. Last one with more than 10 min.
Arroyo will lose about 2 min at least tomorrow in my opinion.
1 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas 40.26 (19,142 km/h)
2 Emanuele Sella (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 0.06
3 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni-Androni Giocattoli 0.17
4 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 0.22
5 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott 0.30
6 José Rujano Guillen (Ven) Caisse d'Epargne 0.49
7 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre 1.04
8 Domenico Pozzovivo (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 1.43
9 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) LPR Brakes 1.45
10 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.49
11 Jens Voigt (GER) Team CSC 1.55
12 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Silence - Lotto 1.58
13 Evgeny Petrov (Rus) Tinkoff Credit Systems 2.17
14 Gustav Erik Larsson (Swe) Team CSC 2.18
15 Andrea Noè (Ita) Liquigas 2.18
16 Sylvester Szmyd (Pol) Lampre 2.37
17 Félix Rafael Cardenas Ravalo (Col) Barloworld 2.39
18 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 2.40
19 Andreas Klöden (GER) Astana 2.40
20 Julio Alberto Perez Cuapio (Mex) CSF Group Navigare 2.56
21 Gabriele Bosisio (Ita) LPR Brakes 3.04
22 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale 3.08
23 Fortunato Baliani (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 3.12
24 Juan Manuel Garate (Spa) Quick Step 3.13
25 Morris Possoni (Ita) Team High Road 3.18
26 Chris Anker Sørensen (Den) Team CSC 3.19
27 Simon Spilak (Slo) Lampre 3.24
28 Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) AG2R La Mondiale 3.24
29 Johannes Fröhlinger (GER) Gerolsteiner 3.27
30 Philip Deignan (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale 3.28
31 Jason McCartney (USA) Team CSC 3.41
32 Kevin Seeldraeyers (Bel) Quick Step 3.42
33 Andrea Tonti (Ita) Quick Step 3.46
34 Charles Wegelius (GBr) Liquigas 3.48
35 Carlos José Ochoa (Ven) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni-Androni Giocattoli 3.52
36 Vladimir Miholjevic (Cro) Liquigas 3.55
37 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 3.55
38 Paolo Bettini (Ita) Quick Step 3.55
39 Yoann Le Boulanger (Fra) Française des Jeux 3.57
40 Raffaele Illiano (Ita) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni-Androni Giocattoli 4.01
41 Guillaume Levarlet (Fra) Française des Jeux 4.05
42 Giovanni Visconti (Ita) Quick Step 4.08
43 Antonio Colom Mas (Spa) Astana 4.08
44 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Caisse d'Epargne 4.11
45 Kanstantsin Siutsou (Blr) Team High Road 4.12
46 Vasili Kiryienka (Blr) Tinkoff Credit Systems 4.14
47 Bram De Groot (Ned) Rabobank 4.14
48 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Slipstream Chipotle Presented By H30 4.16
49 Andrey Mizurov (Kaz) Astana 4.21
50 Jure Golcer (Slo) LPR Brakes 4.21 |
| |
|
|
| lup_andrei |
Posted on 24-05-2010 12:24
|
Stagiare
Posts: 156
Joined: 28-06-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Sorry, it was in 2008, two years ago. I saw the time gaps, so you really can lose time here. Can't wait for it. |
| |
|
|
| Inferio |
Posted on 24-05-2010 15:27
|
Domestique
Posts: 687
Joined: 31-12-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Hey people, why are there those big gaps between the 3 groups?
Starting times: https://biciciclis...p?id=26652 |
| |
|
|
| mrlol |
Posted on 24-05-2010 15:29
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5005
Joined: 24-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Probably to allow motors, cars, mechanics or whatever goes up the mountain, to get back down, only to go up again in the next group. 
Edited by mrlol on 24-05-2010 15:29
|
| |
|
|
| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 24-05-2010 17:53
|
World Champion
Posts: 10121
Joined: 01-05-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Basso will win on Plan de Corones
|
| |
|
|
| Wyman |
Posted on 24-05-2010 18:28
|
Domestique
Posts: 645
Joined: 28-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mrlol wrote:
Probably to allow motors, cars, mechanics or whatever goes up the mountain, to get back down, only to go up again in the next group.
Yes that's exactly what happened last time.... oh and to let the earlier riders come back down
|
| |
|
|
| Smowz |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:16
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6479
Joined: 09-04-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Interesting reading Basso's comments on cyclingnews.com, obviously need to be taken with a bit of tongue in cheek. But there may be a point there - just a blast up the climb may suit other riders more than he.
Sastre springs to mind as a rider that seems to best when on his own - as we saw on Zoncalon he seemed to start to find a way of riding through the others. Cunego maybe another to consider or even Vino, but I think he's cooked like Nibali.
Arroyo I think will find it real tough and may even lose his jersey... We will see. |
| |
|
|
| SotD |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:44
|
World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
|
I don't think he will lose 4 minutes on those 12kms, but he might lose 2 or so...
|
| |
|
|
| ponka00 |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:50
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 820
Joined: 27-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
SotD wrote:
I don't think he will lose 4 minutes on those 12kms, but he might lose 2 or so...
He lost 3:50 up Zoncolan, and the Plan de Corones is arguably a much tougher climb, so I don't see why it isn't possible for Arroyo to lose 4 minutes tomorrow. |
| |
|
|
| Rinhoth |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:52
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 300
Joined: 11-04-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Sastre is usually best after a long day of suffering, such as the day when he won at Alpe d'Huez after several tough climbs.
If children have the ability to ignore all odds and percentages, then maybe we can all learn from them. When you think about it, what other choice is there but to hope? We have two options, medically and emotionally: give up, or Fight Like Hell.
-Lance Armstrong
 |
| |
|
|
| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:53
|
Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Yeh, as someone - probably isso - mentioned the other day, Basso goes better after a more consistently tough pace, as Liquigas set in the build up to Zoncolan.
Sastre will benefit from being able to go solely at his own pace, but im not convinced a mountain time trial suits him - in terms of being the best. As the Giro climbs so far has shown, he takes longer to get into a strong rhythm, and he was also not so good last year on the Blockhaus stage.
Add to the fact that he may not be in the greatest condition, then maybe it is not so ideal.
Personally, Im interested to see how well Szmyd goes - if he pushes for it. Or whether he will be saving his legs for mountain stages to come. And for the stage win, its tricky, but Ill say Evans.
|
| |
|
|
| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:56
|
Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
ponka00 wrote:
SotD wrote:
I don't think he will lose 4 minutes on those 12kms, but he might lose 2 or so...
He lost 3:50 up Zoncolan, and the Plan de Corones is arguably a much tougher climb, so I don't see why it isn't possible for Arroyo to lose 4 minutes tomorrow.
Zoncolan was the culmination of a tough 222km stage, and over 2000km covered in 12 successive stages since the previous rest day.
And then look at the results in 2008, and the sorts of riders who lost 4 minutes on that day.
Arroyo should keep Pink tomorrow.
|
| |
|
|
| Ozzy |
Posted on 24-05-2010 19:58
|
Domestique
Posts: 540
Joined: 28-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
ponka00 wrote:
SotD wrote:
I don't think he will lose 4 minutes on those 12kms, but he might lose 2 or so...
He lost 3:50 up Zoncolan, and the Plan de Corones is arguably a much tougher climb, so I don't see why it isn't possible for Arroyo to lose 4 minutes tomorrow.
Don't forget, that Arroyo might've been already quite tired when Zoncolan started. Liquigas was setting quite a pace on previous climbs.
Also, Zoncolan is steeper than Kronplatz. What makes Corones so hard is gravel, especially for heavy riders. Arroyo is only 60 kg (Basso 70, Evans 64, Scarponi 62, Sastre 60), so after all it should be climb of toughness similar to Zoncolan. But he won't be tired when it begins, so I don't believe he could loose more than 1'30-2'00. |
| |
|
|
| CrueTrue |
Posted on 24-05-2010 20:04
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
More importantly, remember that the rest days are the days for 'reloading' with a pack of new boosted red blood cells |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 24-05-2010 20:10
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
CrueTrue wrote:
More importantly, remember that the rest days are the days for 'reloading' with a pack of new boosted red blood cells
You know the CO2 haemoglobin test? The test for autologous blood transfusions that exists but the WADA refuses to use?
Sassi tests Basso with it regularly. And Basso posts the results along with all his other test results.
He's not on blood transfusions.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| BenBarnes |
Posted on 24-05-2010 20:18
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 277
Joined: 28-04-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
issoisso wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
More importantly, remember that the rest days are the days for 'reloading' with a pack of new boosted red blood cells
You know the CO2 haemoglobin test? The test for autologous blood transfusions that exists but the WADA refuses to use?
Sassi tests Basso with it regularly. And Basso posts the results along with all his other test results.
He's not on blood transfusions.
Do you believe Basso to be clean? And I'm not all caught up on Sassi's background other than he is currently working with Basso and Evans. |
| |
|
