That's what i'm try to say(ish), I think the points allocation was fine but the cap should have been 21. I have Ghita 78/77 MO/TT which is just silly. I haven't seen LLSD in ages so he will get a major nerf probably, hope it's the with other riders
Edited by nacho63 on 19-04-2014 20:03
Don't forget that most of the serious sprinters have avoided the Giro, making Hanzen and Brouwer stage favourites where in the Tour they would be behind the established Cav/Greipel/Kittel/Sagan whatever set up taking place.
Also these rules were layed out at the begining. The time for change was then. Complain all you want but its done now and it certainly wont be changing soon. All Oldfart can do is slow the top level development down, which i think he did very well already. The game has rules and they are not being broke, so suck it up a d stop complaining.
AI is more annoying, and yes it is not brilliant. But we all know what to expect from Cyanide so it should not be a surprise. Again it cant be changed so suck it up. Grow your riders and come back stronger in the future. FDJ are buggered apart from the odd break because are riders are just not that strong. I don't care because i can make fun out of that by switching expectations and focuses
I'm going to jump in here and defend the system. I think that it's been really good to see the custom riders doing well. I believe that this game will have to come to an end eventually, and I believe that it's really added to the game that those riders we created have been able to star.
Plus, there are quite a few great young riders already on the world stage irl.
Kittel 25
Sagan 24
Quintana 24
Kelderman 23
Vanmarche 25
Betancur 24
Kwaitkowski 23
So while we do now have some really good custom riders, there is already a considerable number of great young talent, which has only been added to in this game
I said I wanted to rest this topic for now but TMM pulls me right back in of course...
Also these rules were layed out at the begining. The time for change was then. Complain all you want but its done now and it certainly wont be changing soon. All Oldfart can do is slow the top level development down, which i think he did very well already. The game has rules and they are not being broke, so suck it up a d stop complaining.
No, you "suck it up" now since you obviously like this term so much. Your whole argument is: It was like this from the start and we ain't gonna change it. But when flaws in the system become apparent for some people and they would like to discuss it, all they should do is to "suck it up" and be quiet about it?
What are those rules, eh? Are they written in stone? The 10 Commandments of "I know everything better"? Are they more valueable than experience?
Seriously, why is not allowed in your opinion to find common ground, maybe fix a few things and improve the system?
I like EPIC and I like its narrative approach with the custom riders. Otherwise I wouldn't spend my free time reporting the Giro. I just think that some things ain't working properly. by the way: I'm pretty sure other story-games like the Man-Game changed its rules too.
And whatever now, gotta go. My next post here in this thread will be stage 8.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Shonak wrote:
No, you "suck it up" now since you obviously like this term so much. Your whole argument is: It was like this from the start and we ain't gonna change it. But when flaws in the system become apparent for some people and they would like to discuss it, all they should do is to "suck it up" and be quiet about it?
What are those rules, eh? Are they written in stone? The 10 Commandments of "I know everything better"? Are they more valueable than experience?
Seriously, why is not allowed in your opinion to find common ground, maybe fix a few things and improve the system?
I like EPIC and I like its narrative approach with the custom riders. Otherwise I wouldn't spend my free time reporting the Giro. I just think that some things ain't working properly. by the way: I'm pretty sure other story-games like the Man-Game changed its rules too.
And whatever now, gotta go. My next post here in this thread will be stage 8.
I think that it would be far too complicated to change existing riders without annoying a lot of people.
I think that it would be harsh to scrap all custom riders at this stage or even at the end of the season.
I would suggest that the changes come into place for any new riders coming in with the next season. Yet I shall bow to whatever those in control believe is best to keep EPIC going.
I don't think anyone wants to change the current riders now that are active, doing blogs etc but for the start of the second season (assuming we gwt there), the system should be adjusted depending on what the majority and Ollfardh want.
Right, just to say something before we move to racing again. Some 23 year olds are pretty good already yes, but against the best of the wrold, they can't do much yet. I can slow down progress a bit, but yeah uinbalncing it's kinda hard to get it right at the start. I would rather continue like this then to restart with better rules. Again, the next update will be better I think. NOw bavk to racing!
Ollfardh wrote:
Right, just to say something before we move to racing again. Some 23 year olds are pretty good already yes, but against the best of the wrold, they can't do much yet. I can slow down progress a bit, but yeah uinbalncing it's kinda hard to get it right at the start. I would rather continue like this then to restart with better rules. Again, the next update will be better I think. NOw bavk to racing!
Ollfardh wrote:
tired and slightly drunk, but it's in
I have no questions anymore Edited by SSJ2Luigi on 20-04-2014 10:58
Shonak wrote:
I said I wanted to rest this topic for now but TMM pulls me right back in of course...
Also these rules were layed out at the begining. The time for change was then. Complain all you want but its done now and it certainly wont be changing soon. All Oldfart can do is slow the top level development down, which i think he did very well already. The game has rules and they are not being broke, so suck it up a d stop complaining.
No, you "suck it up" now since you obviously like this term so much. Your whole argument is: It was like this from the start and we ain't gonna change it. But when flaws in the system become apparent for some people and they would like to discuss it, all they should do is to "suck it up" and be quiet about it?
What are those rules, eh? Are they written in stone? The 10 Commandments of "I know everything better"? Are they more valueable than experience?
Seriously, why is not allowed in your opinion to find common ground, maybe fix a few things and improve the system?
I like EPIC and I like its narrative approach with the custom riders. Otherwise I wouldn't spend my free time reporting the Giro. I just think that some things ain't working properly. by the way: I'm pretty sure other story-games like the Man-Game changed its rules too.
And whatever now, gotta go. My next post here in this thread will be stage 8.
I guess i'm just a lot more tired of these games than you are. I've been involved in a variety of games involving custom riders. I was a major part of organizing behind the scenes and testing for the PCMCL, i created and ran the UCPCL and helped Ollfardh set up the custom rider rules for EPIC. I know what does and does not work at this point.
It was pointed out in testing that 23 year olds could be very strong from the start and that growth could make them serious big race winners inside a season. It's a situation that afflicted all of these types of games and each time some people like it and some people don't like it.
I feel EPIC is a lot like the older PCMCL where the focus is supposed to be on the custom riders more than the teams. The defining feature of the game, to set it apart from the UCPCL, was that the custom riders were the focus with most of the mechanics built around them. The design and focus has always been aimed at the custom riders. It's why there are so many custom riders.
If people wanted to have some customs dotted around but the focus to be on established real riders then there was still the UCPCL when this started up. I was ok with Ollfardh setting up EPIC because he, and it, was defined as being different because of the custom rider focus i was for the most part avoiding. This is why it annoys me so much when people complain about custom riders. They are the purpose of the game, a game that spawned while the UCPCL was still alive (admittedly barely alive but it was).
I now struggle to see what is not working with EPIC. The game is running as it was intended. The riders are racing to the levels they were intended. Some are doing very well like Po-Ding but he is by far the exception rather than the rule. The growth system worked really well in Part 1, allowing some development but only very limited and very nicely balanced to benefit younger riders. At that rate of development most riders will not become world beaters until a much later age, or will be a lot more specialized than real riders. Yes there are some very strong CB riders but they lack the adaptability of the best CB riders. Same with the climbers and sprinters. The customs can look good in specific ares but that overall range of attributes takes a hit as a result and it does make a difference.
And yes i know rules change, but it's hard to do successfully mid-season. We've had a lot of races yes, but we havn't completed a GT yet. There is a lot of season to go. We've only had one of three Season 1 development cycles. There is a lot still to be learned before we can start making real, correct, changes. We certainly can't alter the current stats and we shouldn't mess with the development cycles yet either. We can look at new starting stats for new riders for Season 2, but to me that can wait until either we get there or at least until much closer to the time.
So to answer the questions: Yes it's too early to make real judgements. The rules that have been developed by some experienced people over a number of iterations. No but lets not jump ahead of ourselves. I do have more experience on this matter than most people. Again, i have a lot more experience than most. Again, lets not jump ahead of ourselves and consider exactly what the true problems are and why they are first, then we can take measures to improve and i feel that the problems might be mis-diagnosed/misunderstood.
Here's just my opinion. I strongly disagree with TMM, I think even though it would probably be wise not to change the rules until a really good solution is apparent, there is no point stifling discussions like this one, and if you want EPIC to be better than those story games you mentioned, which failed in the end, then it has to adapt through time.
I absolutely hate the idea of slowing development. I would rather take a -10 across the board stat drop than slowing development even a small bit. For me, developing is what makes any game enjoyable, and I find it too slow already.
The only way that the development process was slowed was by capping max stat increase to 77. You have to remember that we have had only one break so far to increase stats. You'll be able to upgrade again after this part is done. You don't know what Ollfardh has planned for the end of the season either were there maybe more room for improvements, we don't know yet. We all know what Delfi needs, a good mountain boost so he could probably go up around 2 with some decent blogs for points and stuff.
I'm really enjoying the game so far, and I understand how it was supposed to be geared towards custom riders now but perhaps I never anticipated the performances we have seen so early.
The Hobbit wrote:
Here's just my opinion. I strongly disagree with TMM, I think even though it would probably be wise not to change the rules until a really good solution is apparent, there is no point stifling discussions like this one, and if you want EPIC to be better than those story games you mentioned, which failed in the end, then it has to adapt through time.
I absolutely hate the idea of slowing development. I would rather take a -10 across the board stat drop than slowing development even a small bit. For me, developing is what makes any game enjoyable, and I find it too slow already.
The only problem with fast development is that it gets a bit out of hand. I know this isn't a great example or even a really good one, but off the top of my head it's what I can think of. Irl Cameron Meyer is an alright Stage Racer, yes? In the ManGame, he is a top sprinter with near no climbing abilities. While I think that one of the best parts of manual development is changing rider specialties, like making say Renshaw a cobbled rider, but when an average stage racer turns into a top sprinter it gets a bit silly for me. Again, not a great example with Meyer and MG, because that obviously works great, but you know what I mean.
Also, having quick development makes the field a lot more unbalanced. There are more stars, which I guess is good, but the gap between the good and the bad grows. Just like in Globalisation, where although more people are better off, the gap between rich & poor grows a lot. Anyway, back to PCM (), having more stars would I guess be cool, and make bigger races more open, but it also takes away the feeling of success when having a star like Froome or Cavendish. Also, it means that lower rated races will be harder to win for weaker teams because there will almost always be a really strong rider present.
When I say the gap between good and average increases, you see gaps open up between sprinters (f.e.) in teams who want to improve their climbers, and thus don't develop too much, and the sprinters in teams who hoard all of their development onto their train.
Your understanding of Globalization is appalling! But that really is off topic...
With a system of limit points being the only form of growth obviously they will be used sparingly to develop the better riders. This will just create a gap. Then when customs get a separate boost which can only be spent on them it will add to that gap growth.
I don't think this was pointed out before, but if not it should have been fairly obvious. It will become a problem over time but because of that delay in effect it is easy to adjust down the road when we can see how it is actually playing out.
Jumping now is rash. We can make a change that could be worse. This is why we need to understand exactly what the issue is. Is it development, or current ability? Currently i view it as neither.
The strongest customs are winning, as was the idea. Then they grow a little bit, more if they are younger, as was the idea.
Some people don't like the fact the customs are winning, and i feel that comes from a misunderstanding of the game, where the strongest customs are supposed to be winning.
But if we are looking for some possible solutions then consider these.
1) Raise custom rider ages. If Hanzen was 26 it wouldn't be odd, plus he would then develop slower.
2) Add a system of natural progression where overall balance can be maintained by raising some riders stats without spending your team points. His would be best combined with an increase rate of decline to control inflation.
3) Instead of points per rider, points per member. So all of your rider posts give a combined score to split between your riders. This would slow overall development. It could see some top riders grow rapidly, but equally it could mean the youngest grow rapidly.
I still feel its too early to have serious discussion on the matter, we need to see at least one more development cycle first. People also need to stop complaining about the customs being strong, complaining is not useful and should stop. Discussion is useful and should be encouraged
TheManxMissile wrote:
Your understanding of Globalization is appalling! But that really is off topic...
With a system of limit points being the only form of growth obviously they will be used sparingly to develop the better riders. This will just create a gap. Then when customs get a separate boost which can only be spent on them it will add to that gap growth.
I don't think this was pointed out before, but if not it should have been fairly obvious. It will become a problem over time but because of that delay in effect it is easy to adjust down the road when we can see how it is actually playing out.
Jumping now is rash. We can make a change that could be worse. This is why we need to understand exactly what the issue is. Is it development, or current ability? Currently i view it as neither.
The strongest customs are winning, as was the idea. Then they grow a little bit, more if they are younger, as was the idea.
Some people don't like the fact the customs are winning, and i feel that comes from a misunderstanding of the game, where the strongest customs are supposed to be winning.
But if we are looking for some possible solutions then consider these.
1) Raise custom rider ages. If Hanzen was 26 it wouldn't be odd, plus he would then develop slower.
2) Add a system of natural progression where overall balance can be maintained by raising some riders stats without spending your team points. His would be best combined with an increase rate of decline to control inflation.
3) Instead of points per rider, points per member. So all of your rider posts give a combined score to split between your riders. This would slow overall development. It could see some top riders grow rapidly, but equally it could mean the youngest grow rapidly.
I still feel its too early to have serious discussion on the matter, we need to see at least one more development cycle first. People also need to stop complaining about the customs being strong, complaining is not useful and should stop. Discussion is useful and should be encouraged
In terms of globalization I'd rather side with cycleman, but about EPIC I'm on TMM's side. Let's wait until we change something, I think. Furthermore, I really like the first version. Balancing overpowered custom riders by making them older sounds like a great idea. What I see as the problem atm is that when you have a whole team and points to upgrade it, you will ahve to choose between all your riders, if you may improve custom riders, there are not so much choices (even when you get points for all yours and not for each). As a team I maybe want to increase my sprinters and my mountain goats or I even have a young star, that I want to make better. When you have a custom rider, you will most probably just increase his best stats, which will perhaps make him ridiculously awesome in future.
@TMM: I don't think many people don't like custom riders winning, but there is a legitimate fear that those will all be about 85 mountain or sprint in one or two years, which is bad for balancing (although I have no deep knowledge in ManGame, I kinda feel that some people don't like that so many sprinters are over 80 f.e.)
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
