admirschleck wrote:
Well, I am not sure either, but if you take one radio conversation, which is apparently the only existing "evidence" at the moment, as the thing to blame one side, it's pretty much fucked up. I am pretty sure it's easy to make conversation with my friend and to act it's "evidence" for shooting a rocket at an airplane? That's a story for kids. Western media is once again manipulating with people and what's worst is that they're doing it perfectly. Read the 2nd part of my post above, I edited it.
That's true. I am, however, sure it's because West. Don't you think it's a bit weird that West is trying to make peace in world, but all they do is make even bigger mess? Don't you think the situation between Russia and Ukraine would be much calmer if West didn't decide to react? Did Russia ever did what West does - try to interfere in other countries problems? I am sure the answer on this question is no. Don't you think thousands of lives would be saved if Israel never existed and if America didn't try to make a fake country there, just because one simple reason - oil (this has nothing to do with religion)? See, wherever West appears, problems become even bigger. But, it's kinda hard to explain this to you and to convince you as someone from West and considering the fact that this is very sensitive topic, it's even more pointless.
I don't particularly like the American government either, nothing is diplomatic for them, they get involved only for two things, oil and to retain the fictional title as super power. This who is bigger business is the root of the problems. You do have a point about Russia they don't intervene in the West, but in my defence doesn't many countries medusa manipulate their people both East and West.
It's not the West that caused the problem in Ukraine. It's Russia having no respect for the territorial rights of Ukraine, and then arming groups in order to destabilise the country. The west is simply respecting international law, something Russia seems to have a problem with. However, I can understand the feeling of hypocrisy when Russia is condemned and Israel - which has committed greater crimes - is treated like it's done nothing wrong.
So...
In my opinion it seems as if Pro-Russians were the ones who fired the BUK Missile. I could be wrong.
The reason everyone complains more about Russia than Israel is because Reat of Europe and USA can do something about what is going on in Russia and Ukraine. On the other hand they tried in the Middle East already but ended up wasting money and lives. Russia they can kill economically if they need to take it that far.
admirschleck wrote:
Well, I am not sure either, but if you take one radio conversation, which is apparently the only existing "evidence" at the moment, as the thing to blame one side, it's pretty much fucked up. I am pretty sure it's easy to make conversation with my friend and to act it's "evidence" for shooting a rocket at an airplane? That's a story for kids. Western media is once again manipulating with people and what's worst is that they're doing it perfectly. Read the 2nd part of my post above, I edited it.
That's true. I am, however, sure it's because West. Don't you think it's a bit weird that West is trying to make peace in world, but all they do is make even bigger mess? Don't you think the situation between Russia and Ukraine would be much calmer if West didn't decide to react? Did Russia ever did what West does - try to interfere in other countries problems? I am sure the answer on this question is no. Don't you think thousands of lives would be saved if Israel never existed and if America didn't try to make a fake country there, just because one simple reason - oil (this has nothing to do with religion)? See, wherever West appears, problems become even bigger. But, it's kinda hard to explain this to you and to convince you as someone from West and considering the fact that this is very sensitive topic, it's even more pointless.
really? as you saw the previous israel arguments brought us nowhere so i decided to not start this over this time. but this is insane. my argument for the US is not supporting us because we have oil is that we simply dont have any oil at all. all of the oil we use is bought from other states.
admirschleck wrote:
Well, I am not sure either, but if you take one radio conversation, which is apparently the only existing "evidence" at the moment, as the thing to blame one side, it's pretty much fucked up. I am pretty sure it's easy to make conversation with my friend and to act it's "evidence" for shooting a rocket at an airplane? That's a story for kids. Western media is once again manipulating with people and what's worst is that they're doing it perfectly.
Wouldn't you think that if it's faked or it was the Ukrainians, Russia wouldn't upload the evidence on Youtube like they did with the conversations like they did before? For example that US whatever she was doing with "F*** the EU".
There has been a general air notice since June not to fly over Ukraine, as it is a warzone.
Edited by weirdskyfan64 on 19-07-2014 20:39
Disclaimer- Most of my posts are me thinking aloud. And most of what I think is rubbish.
Winner of a FIFA Prediction Fair Play Award (a phrase becoming increasingly ironic) "... Because he (me) has a sound tactical mind in general..." jandal7, at 9:30 am GMT on 12th May 2016
jph27 wrote:
It's not the West that caused the problem in Ukraine. It's Russia having no respect for the territorial rights of Ukraine, and then arming groups in order to destabilise the country. The west is simply respecting international law, something Russia seems to have a problem with. However, I can understand the feeling of hypocrisy when Russia is condemned and Israel - which has committed greater crimes - is treated like it's done nothing wrong.
Of course Russia is guilty and Russia/Ukraine caused problems. I just said that West messed it up way more and it wouldn't escalate this much and this fast if West didn't try to do something that's not doable and something that's here for decades, if not centuries- hate between people of these 2 cultures (I really know what I am talking, I am living on Balkan, where the situation is pretty much the same when it comes to past - Yugoslavia shit and all). Using international law is just an excusion, this will turn out to be way bigger than only Russia-Ukraine war.
Rin wrote:
Wouldn't you think that if it's faked or it was the Ukrainians, Russia wouldn't upload the evidence on Youtube like they did with the conversations like they did before? For example that US whatever she was doing with "F*** the EU".
They tried to cover it up, Reagan released the communications of the airstrike on TV and the Sovietunion had to admit they took the airplane down.
I simply can't believe you trust that. How can one conversation that's uploaded on YouTube be a proper evidence, for Gods sake? Okay, they has some history and I can't deny that, but look:
1. From 8th July, Kiev banned every single flight over Ukraine. Therefore, it's directly their mistake and there's nothing to talk about here.
2. Until this moment, separatists and rebels never-ever shot down the plane under 5000 meters and I highly doubt their capacities are that high.
3. Ukraine changed their equipment and energy (if that's the right word) for BUK and C-300 just day or two before this. Coincidence? I think not.
4. Over the same path, just few hours before, Russian president Vladimir Putin passed with his plane that visually looks almost same as planes of Malaysian airlines, so maybe their goal was to shoot at that one? Or no?
5. Why would you ever go over this route if your final destination is Kuala Lumpur? I maybe sound creep now and I really am sorry for all of these hundreds of dead people, but this just isn't logic for me. (Here's the map of the crash https://graphics8....l-600.png)
I once again repeat, I am not on anyone's side nor I am sure any of these sides commited this crime. I just can't believe how easy you guys can be affected by media in a simple way. Maybe it's Ukrainians, maybe it's Russians. We'll probably never know, as informations like this will never be shared on TV, nor any other media source. They're too important. Remember that.
acac wrote:really? as you saw the previous israel arguments brought us nowhere so i decided to not start this over this time. but this is insane. my argument for the US is not supporting us because we have oil is that we simply dont have any oil at all. all of the oil we use is bought from other states.
I don't know where you come from, but I would really like to get an explanation why American intended to make a FAKE country, without its tradition in the middle of Palestine, which has its tradition for hundred of years if not thousands, from you. I might be wrong about oil, but a proper answer is always welcome. I am listening. Here's something I used in previous Israel-Palestine conversation (not on this site, though), so I'll just copy/paste it.
Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing civilians including children?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International fordemolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States , according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S. ?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? ?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel
Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel
Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country in the Middle East created millions of refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?Answer: Israel
Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel
Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents from USA and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union ?
Answer: Israel
Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel
Question: What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel
Question: What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a civilian U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana , Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid to the world yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America ?"
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel
Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel.
What saddens me is that the West bitches all over the place in these cases, but what have they done when USA invades a country based on lies? Or when they sell weapons to militarized groups in foreign conflicts? Or when Israel breaks every international law every day?
I mean, I'm not defending what Russians have done recently, but I just hate all this hipocrisy from the West.
as for the first paragraph: first of i ask you this. if the palestinians have such a long history here, then who was the palestinian president/prime minister/king/... before israel came to be?
when it comes to having traditon here: in the bible the city of jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times. since you once said here that you are a practicing muslim i assume that you know that it is never once mentioned in the quran.
as for what is the US intrest. well its simple. israel was created on may 14th 1948, at the start of the cold war. this is why the first 2 nations to recognise were the united states and the soviet union. both wanted to have as many allies as they can, and that is why during the first few years of israel we have recived alot of support from both, until ben gurion chose to side with the US. during the years we have proved to be helpfull allies to the US on several cases. the first time being Nikita Khrushchev's report "On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences". this is considered one of the reasons the US won the cold war and it was provided by the mossad.
also, when jordan was in a case similar to syria right now during the 70's and the US wanted to save the regime, we were the ones who did their dirty work. furher, after 9/11, the US of course wanted to improve flight safety. who did they turn to for advice? israel. now, every solider the US sends to iraq or afghanistan goes through training in israel which reduced the amount of deaths among them.
for the questions i will use numbering:
1)not for lack of trying. during the 50's the mossad assasinated east german nuclear scientists and in 2007 we boombed a nuclear reactor in syria. also, if you consider them middle eastens, we boombed the reactor in iraq. this also made the lives of US soliders easier in 1991 and 2003.
2)first of all. a weapon of mass destruction is a nuke, a chemical or a biological weapon. now i ask this: what organzation used those children as human sheilds? hamas.
3)amnesty international is one of the most biased "human rights" organization in regards to israel.
4)again: israel supports the us and the us supports israel.
5)first of all those sales were for weapons created by IWI and they were called off when the US objected. second, the aid money, in the end, goes back to america. we have to use it to buy weapons made inside the US. some companys would have gone bankrupt if not for that money and some goes back to the US goverment in taxes.
6)as for demolishing a town while people are still inside i would like to know when has that ever happend. for the first part, so because its not all palestinians who shoot rockets at our civilians, and somtimes they break into home and stab babys in their sleep, so we shouldnt do anything?
7)yes. just stone throwing.
even if it was just stones, those can still kill.
8)is iran allowing inspections? does any arab state allow inspection?
9)we alredy had the securtiy council thing here before. and i ask this: what side started those wars?
10)like 6, i would like to see you come up with instances.
11)we have never assasinated a politican of any state.
12)again, instances. i would also like to refer your to the story of mosab hassen yusef.
13)fales. if a solider is found guilty in wrong doing he recives jail time.
14)several really. egypt, jordan, syria and lebanon to name the big ones. had they recived proper treatment there wouldnt have been all thoes camps. jewish people were deported from arab states and that has turned them into refugees. the diffrence is that israel treated them and gave them a home.
15)are the jewish refugees getting any compensation?
16)again, exampels.
17)in what country a man who was involved in the Tehran hostage crisis became president? iran.
18)for the diplomatic thing i will once againg ask when? for the USS liberty, we were at a war at the time and asked the US to keep a distance. they did not report us that they have a ship in the area and so, when our coast was boombed its was mistaken for an egyptian ship. we later paid compenstations to the survivers, familys of the dead and to the US goverment.
19)none went to the soviet union. as for the spy himself: the US and israel have had an agreement of sharing files that are relevent to the other side. the files that pollard had sent were files that were relevent to us and yet the US didnt send them out.
20)for the pardon: other spies who have done way more damage to the US recived fewer years in prison. i for one have no idea why he has recived such a long sentance.
21)just last mont we sent out a jewish israeli man who was wanted in the US for trail.
22)im assuming you are reffering to Baruch Goldstein. if so we have no memorial of him. however. there is a jordanian man sitting in jordanian prison for killing 7 israeli school girls and a teacher. there are people inside the jordanian goverment demanding his realese.
23)this massacer was conducted by rebels in lebanon(christians). i do admit they were pro israeli, but they are not israelis.
24)again, give me an example. i will also ask this: how come there are so many decions against israel yet not one against assad?
25)the US aid money makes about 3% of our budget. i dont have the list of rich states but i guess taking that off wont make that much diffrence. also remember that we are a small state. for the size of our pupulation we have one of the strongest economies in the world.
26)never heard about it so is ask again for examples.
27)the oslo accords were broken by the palestinians with suicide bombings, hence the oslo accoords are not relevent anymore.
28)getting tired of this. examples.
edit:
@b3n3v3nt3
just like admir i am going to ask you what international laws?
Edited by acac on 18-07-2014 13:09
I'll try to control myself when writing this message, as much as that's possible in this moment.
Okay, seriously, that's the funniest message I've ever read. I mean, the bias is clear there and I won't discuss it, but it's hilarious. It's so wrong. I used this sentence often on this site, but I'll give myself right to use it again - do you believe yourself when you say that, or you just want to defend your country?
Do not bring religion in this, especially not the way you do. I really, really, really am sensitive on that topic (especially talking with someone from Israel), so you don't want to talk about it with me. At least not when talking about wars.
International laws - not to attack and kill thousands of innocent muslim people who just want their land that always was and is their, do you understand that you heartless man? It's funny how can symbol of suffering, pain, being killed (Jews) can suddenly turn into symbol of attackers, hearltess killers and idiots, for just 50 years.
On another side, good news. I never was happy about killing people, but more than 100 jews soliders are killed now. 5k of Hamas soldiers managed to defend 3 areas in Palestine and now most of 60k Israelis army that passed the border are out of the country. Hopefully, they'll manage to completely defend themselves from this.
What pissess me off is other Muslim countries closing their eyes on this massacre that is happening right in front of their eyes and refusing to help Palestinians. Especially Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan Empire, Arabia, Iran and Iraq. So money and western influence makes you turn your back even when you can hear your brothers' death screams while theyre getting killed just behind you...
Israel targeted civilian homes, hospitals, schools, UN buildings, and mosques. Israel is nothing but a terrorist state.
Israel's weakness is its thirst for blood, Palestinians strength is their insistence and willness for life and to live. That's the difference, Mr. acac.
Edited by admirschleck on 18-07-2014 17:22
I'm so angry with what Israel are doing, but as sad as it sounds it won't end until Israel have what they want and that is the complete massacre. The British government have been involved in many things in history but this is the worst, the USA also. How any country or persons can defend what Israel are doing is unthinkable. As people have already said on here what is the point of the Geneva convention. At the moment they are just people stealing a salary because what are they doing to stop human suffering in places like Gaza, nothing. It is such a tragedy that people will suffer and die all because of the governments don't want to display their shame for the mistakes they have made in backing Israel. I'm normally quiet when it comes to this conflict but what has happened to the world, so many pointless wars and the west has been the instigator in some of them too.
I'll try to control myself when writing this message, as much as that's possible in this moment.
Okay, seriously, that's the funniest message I've ever read. I mean, the bias is clear there and I won't discuss it, but it's hilarious. It's so wrong. I used this sentence often on this site, but I'll give myself right to use it again - do you believe yourself when you say that, or you just want to defend your country?
Do not bring religion in this, especially not the way you do. I really, really, really am sensitive on that topic (especially talking with someone from Israel), so you don't want to talk about it with me. At least not when talking about wars.
International laws - not to attack and kill thousands of innocent muslim people who just want their land that always was and is their, do you understand that you heartless man? It's funny how can symbol of suffering, pain, being killed (Jews) can suddenly turn into symbol of attackers, hearltess killers and idiots, for just 50 years.
On another side, good news. I never was happy about killing people, but more than 100 jews soliders are killed now. 5k of Hamas soldiers managed to defend 3 areas in Palestine and now most of 60k Israelis army that passed the border are out of the country. Hopefully, they'll manage to completely defend themselves from this.
What pissess me off is other Muslim countries closing their eyes on this massacre that is happening right in front of their eyes and refusing to help Palestinians. Especially Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan Empire, Arabia, Iran and Iraq. So money and western influence makes you turn your back even when you can hear your brothers' death screams while theyre getting killed just behind you...
parahraph 1: to ansewer your question- yes. i do belive it. to ask you one- do you belive yourself or do you just protect your brothers?
paragrapg 2: you dont want to bring religion into this? fine.
paragraph 3: i am going to reapet it for the billion time-exampales. when has israel attacked someone who didnt fire the first shot? you cant make argument without coming up with facts supporting those arguments.
paragraph 4: i dont know what your news suorce is but i hate to break this to you: 1 israeli solider is killed and a few dozens hamas terrorists are dead. also, even if it were true, saying good news about death is disgusting.
about your later post- im too tired from asking for examples so i will just ask this- are you aware that the UN has reported that he has found rockets belonging to hamas inside a school?
Ste117 wrote:
I'm so angry with what Israel are doing, but as sad as it sounds it won't end until Israel have what they want and that is the complete massacre. The British government have been involved in many things in history but this is the worst, the USA also. How any country or persons can defend what Israel are doing is unthinkable. As people have already said on here what is the point of the Geneva convention. At the moment they are just people stealing a salary because what are they doing to stop human suffering in places like Gaza, nothing. It is such a tragedy that people will suffer and die all because of the governments don't want to display their shame for the mistakes they have made in backing Israel. I'm normally quiet when it comes to this conflict but what has happened to the world, so many pointless wars and the west has been the instigator in some of them too.
i give you that. we do after all shout death to arabs all the time. oh wait! thats hamas and its not death to arabs but death to jews.
edit: about the picture- what about the tens of thousends of children in israel that are being boobmbed.
Edited by acac on 18-07-2014 18:05
Israel came to Palestines teritory. Therefore, Israel was the first one that started all of this. Of course you'd expect people to defend their teritory, would you? You should turn on your brain.
And yes, I hate Israel. And yes, I am happy with Israel soldiers being dead. And no, you can't take that from me, sorry. You made so much pain to poor Islamic people there (that would be hungry and thirsty even without your evil, wannabe country, American creation) and you're now pretending that you're not guilty and as naive kid. How sad! Your avatar talks enough, though.
You should try searching another source for your informations. Sadly enough, what I said is confirmed on local news (that are Serbian and has no connection to Islamic people).
Edited by admirschleck on 18-07-2014 18:11
