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PCM.daily DB Stats discussion
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 11-07-2014 13:14
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Then why does Froome have more cobbles than Quintana when we have no real indicator. Once again, Froome doesn't have:
1) Skills needed to ride well on cobbles;
2) Experience on cobbles;
3) Result on cobbles.
Most of the GC riders have raced at least once before in past tours. Quintana and Froome are the ones that haven't done so. Why should the one have 8 cobbles more and to be equal to the rest of GC contenders unlike the other one. |
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| gotlandrules |
Posted on 11-07-2014 13:29
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Yeah, can't see why Froome should have over 60 COB when he has the worst bike handling in the peloton. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 11-07-2014 13:42
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Sprinter
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dark_x2012 wrote:
Then why does Froome have more cobbles than Quintana when we have no real indicator. Once again, Froome doesn't have:
1) Skills needed to ride well on cobbles;
2) Experience on cobbles;
3) Result on cobbles.
Most of the GC riders have raced at least once before in past tours. Quintana and Froome are the ones that haven't done so. Why should the one have 8 cobbles more and to be equal to the rest of GC contenders unlike the other one.
Well Froome is far better than Quintana in both flat and TT making him by default a likely better rider over cobbles than Quintana (even though both hardly have any experience) and I'm also following stat logic here, as there are very few strong cobble riders that don't have strong flat skills as well.
The nearest indicator for Froome would be Wiggins similar in that he has strong flat and TT skills and he also proved what a poor bike handler he was in the Giro 2013, but then still focused on this year's PR and rode a great race. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 11-07-2014 13:55
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World Champion
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Tafiolmo wrote:
The nearest indicator for Froome would be Wiggins similar in that he has strong flat and TT skills and he also proved what a poor bike handler he was in the Giro 2013, but then still focused on this year's PR and rode a great race.
I have to disagree with that, Wiggins was just the 2013 Giro where he didn't know what to do. Froome has been very consistent in not knowing how to ride a bike. I can still see him crashing in the TT championship 
Froome good on the flat can also be disputed, looking back at last year's echelon stage.
I compare Froome on cobbles to a 90kg cobbler trying to climb, it's just not going to happen. I have to agree Quintana seems highly unlikely as well, for that matter.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Maddox |
Posted on 11-07-2014 14:03
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What what you give Jakob Fuglsang in cobblestones? |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 11-07-2014 15:12
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Sprinter
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Ollfardh wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
The nearest indicator for Froome would be Wiggins similar in that he has strong flat and TT skills and he also proved what a poor bike handler he was in the Giro 2013, but then still focused on this year's PR and rode a great race.
I have to disagree with that, Wiggins was just the 2013 Giro where he didn't know what to do. Froome has been very consistent in not knowing how to ride a bike. I can still see him crashing in the TT championship
Froome good on the flat can also be disputed, looking back at last year's echelon stage.
I compare Froome on cobbles to a 90kg cobbler trying to climb, it's just not going to happen. I have to agree Quintana seems highly unlikely as well, for that matter.
The Wiggins example on poor control is just an example to show that when it's not going your way in a big tour through crashes and punctures then it's just not going to happen for you, but to drastically change the stats of the rider to reflect this is also not a great idea either. For example in last year's tour VDB abandoned before the big mountain stages and there were members on here suggesting that his mountain stats get reduced as well.
Froome is about 73 on the flat which is decent for a GC contender.
Well if Contador can finish within 3 minutes of Boom on a cobble stage, there's no reason to suggest that a fully fit Froome couldn't have stayed around 3 mins as well. You have to realise that Sky are a good cobbled team with riders like Stannard, Hagan and Thomas and only one of those was present as well, but it was enough that Thomas was able to protect Porte and get him a good time and he's another rider with no real ability over cobbles either. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 06:20
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| Kiserlovski01 |
Posted on 11-07-2014 16:38
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Gatto really deserves a SP/ACC update. 72/74 is way too low if he's able to beat Lobato and Haller in Austria. |
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| jarneke1404 |
Posted on 11-07-2014 16:39
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what about sagan? in London, he can stay just behind kittel, but then, he get beaten in a sprint for a second place by Van Avermaet and Kwiatkowski, and then he get beaten by trentin? in my game he have: 79 SP 83 ACC , is this too high? |
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| I_Mayo |
Posted on 11-07-2014 16:49
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jarneke1404 wrote:
what about sagan? in London, he can stay just behind kittel, but then, he get beaten in a sprint for a second place by Van Avermaet and Kwiatkowski, and then he get beaten by trentin? in my game he have: 79 SP 83 ACC , is this too high?
Did you even watch the stage or just saw results page? His attack was caught 1 KM from finish, did you expect him to have as much power left as Trentin? |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 11-07-2014 17:34
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jarneke1404 wrote:
what about sagan? in London, he can stay just behind kittel, but then, he get beaten in a sprint for a second place by Van Avermaet and Kwiatkowski, and then he get beaten by trentin? in my game he have: 79 SP 83 ACC , is this too high?
79 is right for him, because as said he attacked with Van Avermaet where he used up loads of energy and was nowhere near his full energy level for the sprint. |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 11-07-2014 18:45
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Don't overreact with Nibali's good performance on cobbles. We had some GC riders doing exceptionally good in 2010 (especially Hesjedal), and they didn't get 70+ cobbles then IIRC.
I would say:
Fuglsang 69
Nibali 68
Van den Broeck, Porte and Talansky around 66
Valverde maybe 67-68 (because of his good performance in one of the spring races)
Van Garderen 64
Mollema 62
Contador around 60 IMO
Or maybe everybody 2-3 points more than I've written if you don't bother GC riders being quite good on cobbles actually, opposed to the previous versions od DB. But that could be kind of problem, you would be able to send some climbers to the cobbled races in career and get some top10 results with them with some luck, that's not quite realistic.
Though it's a bit hard to read, because some riders fell down and could've had more impressive performance otherwise.
Edited by Anderis on 11-07-2014 18:46
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 11-07-2014 19:12
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Fugelsang for the win in Flaandern next year.  |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:09
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dark_x2012 wrote:
Then why does Froome have more cobbles than Quintana when we have no real indicator. Once again, Froome doesn't have:
1) Skills needed to ride well on cobbles;
2) Experience on cobbles;
3) Result on cobbles.
Most of the GC riders have raced at least once before in past tours. Quintana and Froome are the ones that haven't done so. Why should the one have 8 cobbles more and to be equal to the rest of GC contenders unlike the other one.
Well i think their is a good chance a brute power rider who can timetrial will destroy some midget on the cobbles. Did Froome go down on cobbles? No he did'nt. I bet Froome would have been fine on cobbles without his stage 4 crash he did not get far enough though.
People saying his bike handling sucks must be watching a diff sport you can count two times he as fell on his own. Contador was awful on cobbles his mud excuse was stupid. He looked uncomfortable all day. Froome would have been fine |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:09
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dark_x2012 wrote:
Then why does Froome have more cobbles than Quintana when we have no real indicator. Once again, Froome doesn't have:
1) Skills needed to ride well on cobbles;
2) Experience on cobbles;
3) Result on cobbles.
Most of the GC riders have raced at least once before in past tours. Quintana and Froome are the ones that haven't done so. Why should the one have 8 cobbles more and to be equal to the rest of GC contenders unlike the other one.
Well i think their is a good chance a brute power rider who can timetrial will destroy some midget on the cobbles. Did Froome go down on cobbles? No he did'nt. I bet Froome would have been fine on cobbles without his stage 4 crash he did not get far enough though.
People saying his bike handling sucks must be watching a diff sport you can count two times he as fell on his own. Contador was awful on cobbles his mud excuse was stupid. He looked uncomfortable all day. Froome would have been fine |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:16
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Sagan just is not what he was in sprinting terms infact he as regressed big time, you would think it would mean he is even better at cobbles or hills but he as not improved atall this year. Look at last year one win in the TDF, he got beaten by Gerrans. This year no win yet. |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:22
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atlanta wrote:
Well i think their is a good chance a brute power rider who can timetrial will destroy some midget on the cobbles. Did Froome go down on cobbles? No he did'nt. I bet Froome would have been fine on cobbles without his stage 4 crash he did not get far enough though.
People saying his bike handling sucks must be watching a diff sport you can count two times he as fell on his own. Contador was awful on cobbles his mud excuse was stupid. He looked uncomfortable all day. Froome would have been fine
I have to disagree here. For a cobblestone rider brute power isn't enough. You need to now over which cobbles to ride. Otherwise, you end up with a puncture or on the ground (or PR 2013). You need to beable to handle your bike or you'll fall. Also, do you now what is to ride unable to change yor gear and not to be able to ride on a higher gear on flat. I've tried it on my own in a storm where I leave and if you try to change your gear your chain falls. |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:25
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dark_x2012 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
I find it hard to imagine Froome taking cobbles well, seeing his general bikehandling 
To be honest, I was more impressed by Fuglsang then by Nibali on the cobbles. He can go 1-2 points above Nibali imo.
Yes but it's guesswork as he didn't ride them and he had a bad wrist as well. The only thing we do know though is that Nibali is much better over cobbles than Contador from the big GC contenders.
Only from Contador  . Also answer me a question. What does it take to be a good rider on cobbles? When you understand the answer is bike handling write back.
Get back me to me when Froome actually crashed on cobbles. Or get on to Cyanide about a bike handling stat. What a fail man. Froome got took out on stage 4 unless yo missed. Hence why he crashed on stage 5 before the "cobbles" . |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:30
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dark_x2012 wrote:
atlanta wrote:
Well i think their is a good chance a brute power rider who can timetrial will destroy some midget on the cobbles. Did Froome go down on cobbles? No he did'nt. I bet Froome would have been fine on cobbles without his stage 4 crash he did not get far enough though.
People saying his bike handling sucks must be watching a diff sport you can count two times he as fell on his own. Contador was awful on cobbles his mud excuse was stupid. He looked uncomfortable all day. Froome would have been fine
I have to disagree here. For a cobblestone rider brute power isn't enough. You need to now over which cobbles to ride. Otherwise, you end up with a puncture or on the ground (or PR 2013). You need to beable to handle your bike or you'll fall. Also, do you now what is to ride unable to change yor gear and not to be able to ride on a higher gear on flat. I've tried it on my own in a storm where I leave and if you try to change your gear your chain falls.
No dude Contador bottled it he rode like a cpward on the flats. Did you see TJVG actually working?. And Contador done nothing. I just don't get how you think Froome deserves a low Cob stat when he never rode on cobbles to prove you're point. I no now yo will say well why does he deserve what he as got, well it is clear their is more to suggest he would be ok than not. Did you see Thomas pulling Porte with him? Do you honestly think if Porte can beat Contador that Froome wouldn't? |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:33
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Cancellara is a great ITT rider, so is Wiggins, Phinney is good. I bet Tony Martin could be great, brute power does mean alot you need a big engine |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 12-07-2014 15:48
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Brute force means a lot but so does technique - a serious lack for Froome and Martin. Also, yes, I think Porte is a much better cobbler than Froome mostly because he can handle his bike. Contador couldn't change his gears so he can't have ridden diferently. |
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