CrueTrue wrote:
About the HGH test, who really cares? When it's detectable, they just move on to other, non-detectable products.
you don't get it. they'll move on to drug X. why don't they use drug X right now? because it's not as good as HGH. and thus the gap between the clean riders and the Cancellaras of the world lessens.
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
CrueTrue wrote:
About the HGH test, who really cares? When it's detectable, they just move on to other, non-detectable products.
you don't get it. they'll move on to drug X. why don't they use drug X right now? because it's not as good as HGH. and thus the gap between the clean riders and the Cancellaras of the world lessens.
And here I thought you were a reasonable guy, and you then make these ludacris statements. The Cancellaras of the world... Geez.
Cancellara ? Look at Voigt in the first mountain stage i always sais he is doped he won the German Tour the TT and the moutain stage ....and he always drops in that kind of stages.
Voigt was never doped in his complete career, otherwise, he would have won bigger races. And if you have watches on TV, Voigt lost always time at the end of stages, now and in the past.
Cancellara is perhaps a doper, but look t some frech guys, the italians and surely the spanish. I am sure, that sastre is not clean, evans (ex-T-Mobile!), valverde, mentschow too. I'm not sure, that f.schleck and kohl are really doped. Although the extremely good performances of some of the younger riders (a.schleck, vandevelde, kreuziger) seem very suspicius....
CrueTrue wrote:
About the HGH test, who really cares? When it's detectable, they just move on to other, non-detectable products.
you don't get it. they'll move on to drug X. why don't they use drug X right now? because it's not as good as HGH. and thus the gap between the clean riders and the Cancellaras of the world lessens.
And here I thought you were a reasonable guy, and you then make these ludacris statements. The Cancellaras of the world... Geez.
yes, yes, I know, it's human nature to assume the best. But the facts are just too many to pass up. The trillion CSC or former CSC riders who doped, the team personnel who are almost exclusively former doped riders, the performances that are literally impossible for clean riders, the "anti-doping program" that another doped team is also using and which is run by the least trustable man in the world, the fact that the team themselves take the samples from the riders and only then send them to the UCI for testing, the needles found on the CSC car after Roubaix that "were used for vitamins" (yeah right, intravenous vitamins, tell it to the horse), the fact that everyone involved in the fight against doping continually points the finger at CSC riders, etc etc etc.
I'd like to believe the team is clean. I'd also like to believe the israelis will stop the genocide. not gonna happen.
Riis says the team is clean now. He also said that pretty much every other year and we now know that was not the case a few years ago. so why should I believe him the trillionth time he says "now we're clean" if I know he was lying all previous times?
digga wrote:
Voigt was never doped in his complete career, otherwise, he would have won bigger races.
And if you have watches on TV, Voigt lost always time at the end of stages, now and in the past.
First, your argument makes no sense
Second:
Jaksche: "I've never seen anyone as pumped full of corticoids as Voigt, yet he always has that innocent face"
Serrano: "[in the 98 tour after festina were thrown out] I was discussing with Voigt how likely it was we would be caught. we were all nervous. He replied his GAN team had buried the dope in fear of the team's vehicles being searched"
digga wrote:
Cancellara is perhaps a doper, but look t some frech guys, the italians and surely the spanish. I am sure, that sastre is not clean, evans (ex-T-Mobile!), valverde, mentschow too. I'm not sure, that f.schleck and kohl are really doped. Although the extremely good performances of some of the younger riders (a.schleck, vandevelde, kreuziger) seem very suspicius....
they are all doped. My heart wants to make an exception for Vande Velde, because I really want to believe in slipstream, but his performance is just out of the ordinary. And we need to catch them ALL. it's like pokemon, really.
It's sad, but it's this way. as long as they can get away with it, THEY WILL
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
FFS! I hate the gorram speculations. Any or all riders who perform at any level are under suspicion. Bullcrap I say. How can anyone enjoy the racing when everybody is under suspicion.
The latest news are that Fränk Schleck is involved in the Puerto case as "Amigo de Birillo". Or maybe that was Giovanni Lombardi. Point is, noone knows before they are tested positive. So stop the dang speculation allready.
jacknic wrote:
FFS! I hate the gorram speculations. Any or all riders who perform at any level are under suspicion. Bullcrap I say. How can anyone enjoy the racing when everybody is under suspicion.
want science? search the wattages discussions we've had. use the search function. plenty of scientific proof to show that the performances of around the top 10 or so of this year's tour are literally impossible for a clean human.
It's like this: nearly everyone does software piracy, no matter how law-abiding they consider themselves to be. because it's so widespread the mentality is "who cares, it's fine, it's no harm at all, etc.". Cyclists have the EXACT same mentality with doping. And if you worked your whole life at something, will you suck at it just for principle? no matter who you are or how "pure" you are, I guarantee you will not
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
I strongly oppose the notion of all cyclers being mindless sheep who are powerless to do anything but dope.
I choose to believe that the riders are clean until proven otherwise. I'd rather be dissappointed, than proven right. And I have seen the Watt discussion, but didn't you yourself post, that the output on Hautacam were lower than previous years?
And don't you think that it is strange if all riders are absolutely ignoring the fact that the riders who are getting caught are crucified by the media and the fans. Does none of them have any moral problems with doping?
And about Jachshe and Serrano. Maybe they are telling the truth, maybe not. But alot of water has run under the bridge since 1998, and even since 2004. I am not saying that CSC or any team were clean back then. I am saying, that just maybe some of the teams are sincerly trying to clean up.
Both jacknic and Isso have a point, but I think Isso's has more validity, the time has come and passed when cyclists are innocent until proven guilty, now we a re in a grey zone, where you under suspision until your're guilty
Deadpool wrote:
Both jacknic and Isso have a point, but I think Isso's has more validity, the time has come and passed when cyclists are innocent until proven guilty, now we a re in a grey zone, where you under suspision until your're guilty
So basically the young riders in the peloton are under suspicion becauso of things that went wrong before they went pro. That sounds fair. I can imagine some riders thinking "If you are going to assume that I am a cheater, I might as well cheat."
Oh and by the way: issoisso, how is the 410 watt thresshold calculated? Can't seem to find it.
jacknic wrote:
I strongly oppose the notion of all cyclers being mindless sheep who are powerless to do anything but dope.
I never proposed that notion. when I said "all of them" I was referring to all the ones that were mentioned in the post I was quoting.
jacknic wrote:
And I have seen the Watt discussion, but didn't you yourself post, that the output on Hautacam were lower than previous years?
yes, now there are tests for a few more substances. lower performances doesn't mean "immediately clean"
jacknic wrote:
And don't you think that it is strange if all riders are absolutely ignoring the fact that the riders who are getting caught are crucified by the media and the fans. Does none of them have any moral problems with doping?
They do, but not all that much. When your livelihood is at stake, it's a choice of riding clean and win nothing or ride on dope and be on a level ground. No matter how honest you are, you always have doubts about what to do.
jacknic wrote:
And about Jachshe and Serrano. Maybe they are telling the truth, maybe not. But alot of water has run under the bridge since 1998, and even since 2004. I am not saying that CSC or any team were clean back then. I am saying, that just maybe some of the teams are sincerly trying to clean up.
I truly believe some are. And when I see riders who are right up there with the best on short efforts but fail miserably when the effort becomes almost fully anaerobic (meaning: when the drugs have an enormous effect), it tells me something. I be struck by lightning if Gilbert, for instance, is doping.
jacknic wrote:
Oh and by the way: issoisso, how is the 410 watt thresshold calculated? Can't seem to find it.
ask aquarius. I looked for the threads a few times in the past few days and gave up. the google search sucks balls, it never finds anything. I want the old site search back
Deadpool wrote:the time has come and passed when cyclists are innocent until proven guilty, now we a re in a grey zone, where you under suspision until your're guilty
I disagree strongly. You won't see me saying anything about riders who I have no reason to suspect. The main problem I see is that the vast majority of people do not realise the enormous effect of the drugs. in case you weren't at this site then, I'll "remind" you of the german guy who tested EPO on himself to see the effects. He was on EPO, nothing else. not cortico, not blood transfusions, not HGH, nothing else. he rode the alpe d'huez clean and after an EPO treatment. despite riding the first time in clean weather and the second in heavy rain and wind, his second time was a 4 minute improvement. that's ONE climb.
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Deadpool wrote:the time has come and passed when cyclists are innocent until proven guilty, now we a re in a grey zone, where you under suspision until your're guilty
I disagree strongly. You won't see me saying anything about riders who I have no reason to suspect. The main problem I see is that the vast majority of people do not realise the enormous effect of the drugs. in case you weren't at this site then, I'll "remind" you of the german guy who tested EPO on himself to see the effects. He was on EPO, nothing else. not cortico, not blood transfusions, not HGH, nothing else. he rode the alpe d'huez clean and after an EPO treatment. despite riding the first time in clean weather and the second in heavy rain and wind, his second time was a 4 minute improvement. that's ONE climb.
To further back up that, i have a lecturer who as a sports physiologist took part in a study into EPO use (the seconds generation stuff). There were obviously two groups. One that took EPO and one that didnt. The group that didn't gained the pyschological advantage of thinking they were on something. And on average showed a 3% improvement in their chosen measure of test - be it a running or cycling VO2 max test, or distance traveled in a set amount of time on a static machine. During training, this certain physiologist had set a PB for 2000m rowing. Once he had the dose of EPO (he wasn't on the control team) he smashed his PB by minutes. On average the group gained a 10% increase in performance. Obviously the gain from different amounts of EPO vary, as well as used on different people. The difference between EPO being used on an unfit person as on a fit im sure would be different. But regardless, that PB he set has never even been close to being broken by him. Basically he made a joke that that was the way to go, if you could get away with it. It's such a vast improvement that its not even funny. Plus you gain the psychological edge over others by knowing that you are at your peak.
rjc_43 wrote:The difference between EPO being used on an unfit person as on a fit im sure would be different.
by the way, the guy who did the Alpe thing was an amateur marathon runner, so he was in a fit condition.
rjc_43 wrote:
Plus you gain the psychological edge over others by knowing that you are at your peak.
He also said that the EPO made him, for whatever reason, much more aggressive. He used a sentence similar to "I was as aggressive as if the road up the Alpe was flat"
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
rjc_43 wrote:The difference between EPO being used on an unfit person as on a fit im sure would be different.
by the way, the guy who did the Alpe thing was an amateur marathon runner, so he was in a fit condition.
rjc_43 wrote:
Plus you gain the psychological edge over others by knowing that you are at your peak.
He also said that the EPO made him, for whatever reason, much more aggressive. He used a sentence similar to "I was as aggressive as if the road up the Alpe was flat"
Yeah, i was referring to the fact that some people who gained 10% or more in performance would be untrained guys/girls. So if say a pro cyclist took some, they may only improve by 2%, but it's still an astronomical improvement on any climb.
EPO is a hormone, like any hormone they all have different effects on different people. It probably made his body release more adrenaline and testosterone. Imagine if your body was telling you that your blood was so good your muscles could cope with being bigger and better because of an improved O2 uptake. Now if i were my body id release shed loads of testosterone and build me some bigger muscles.
issoisso wrote:
the needles found on the CSC car after Roubaix that "were used for vitamins" (yeah right, intravenous vitamins, tell it to the horse),
I have to just point this one out. I agree with you pretty much about all your posts, as you're generally a sound guy with very well thought out arguments. But as a pro cyclist to prevent illness after such an exhausting race such as Roubaix etc injections really are neccessary. The body uptakes and utilises vitamins 50% faster when injected than when taken in pill or suppository form. So it makes sense to inject the stuff if you can. Now that means if you can put up your body's defenses to illness that much faster it means you aren't going to lose your fitness to a crappy cold for some silly reason. Now if you are talking about what else was in those injections, its a different matter, and I for one am also suspicious. But i just thought i'd have to let you know that some injections are legitimate and perfectly legally and helpful.
Deadpool wrote:
Saunier Duval - Scott is now Scott-American Beef for the rest of the year
Scott - American Beef
That is such a bad name
horrible, isn't it?
rjc_43 wrote:
I have to just point this one out.
feel free.
rjc_43 wrote:
I agree with you pretty much about all your posts, as you're generally a sound guy with very well thought out arguments. But as a pro cyclist to prevent illness after such an exhausting race such as Roubaix etc injections really are neccessary.The body uptakes and utilises vitamins 50% faster when injected than when taken in pill or suppository form. So it makes sense to inject the stuff if you can. Now that means if you can put up your body's defenses to illness that much faster it means you aren't going to lose your fitness to a crappy cold for some silly reason. Now if you are talking about what else was in those injections, its a different matter, and I for one am also suspicious. But i just thought i'd have to let you know that some injections are legitimate and perfectly legally and helpful.
butter up then sucker punch, eh?
look, I'd agree if they had another race close by, but after Roubaix, those riders take a month off. Their other season objectives begin in June. There's nothing to recover for. Of course some injections are fine, but saying it was vitamins reeks, to me at least.
Edited by issoisso on 25-07-2008 21:34
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
"ask aquarius. I looked for the threads a few times in the past few days and gave up. the google search sucks balls, it never finds anything. I want the old site search back"
See the link at the bottom of the search page? It's been there for ages.
Well lets say they are doped, and it was an injection of HGH or whatever they want. They aren't gunna turn around and say so! If they can get away with being "one of the clean 3", they aren't going to admit to a doping scheme.
On another note, if you have watched CSC's DVD on i think the 2005 tour de france, you will notice that Bjjarne gives Sastre some pill to make him feel better. Doesnt say what it is, comes out of an unmarked container. I feel a finger pointing session coming on - oooo *points vigourously*
I don't get that if a rider gets caught doping they get a 2 year ban, why don't team managers/coaches/DS's also get a similar ban?
CrueTrue wrote:
"ask aquarius. I looked for the threads a few times in the past few days and gave up. the google search sucks balls, it never finds anything. I want the old site search back"
See the link at the bottom of the search page? It's been there for ages.
thanks
I never look at the main page of the forum
rjc_43 wrote:
I don't get that if a rider gets caught doping they get a 2 year ban, why don't team managers/coaches/DS's also get a similar ban?
I still think it's a lifetime ban for the rider and if 2 riders from a team are caught (not 2 within a certain time span, 2 ever), all soigneurs, masseurs, doctors and DSs are banned for life.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever happen
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
