Aquarius wrote:
Yep, till 2003 a break usually made it, even in the EPO'ed 90's, so times were slower.
Since then it's still been very EPO'ed, but maybe less since 2010 or 2011. Yet the times have kept improving.
I know it's only a few seconds here and there, but we're talking about a ~160 seconds effort here, it's not like breaking the record for a 40 minutes mountain ascent by 3 seconds.
And if bikes have evolved, their weight has remained the same, so that's not much of a difference when it's all about going uphill.
I agree about tactics too, when you know it's going to end up that way you hardly bother wasting strengths prior, but still, when you add the resurrection of Contador, Valverde earlier this season already, and Gilbert breaking the Cauberg's record as well, I think (but it's an opinion, I may be wrong) that it draws a trend that I'm not too happy to see.
Interesting points as usual from you. I still want to keep from away from judging Contador, Valv or Gilbert though - probably because I like them too much.
Of course, breaking a record and thereby beating known dopers of the past is suspicious, then again I'd be more suspicious of a 40 minutes record climb being beaten by 3 seconds. I suppose that the shorter the effort is, the more likely it appears to me that a (theoretically) non-doper can beat someone with dope and set a new record against all those doper-times of the past.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Aquarius wrote:
Bullshit. That's just totally wrong.
Pre-EPO flat stages : something like 30 % of breaks made it to the end.
EPO times flat stages : 99 % of bunch sprints.
Pre-EPO Milan San-Remo : a guy often made it solo to the end, or a small group.
EPO MSR : countless bunch sprints, won by "clean" guys like Zabel, Cipo, Freire, Tchmill (sort of), etc.
Give them more EPO, I actually like bunch sprints.
What does this conversation have to do with flat stages?
It has ?
I thought we were talking about Flèche Wallone systematically ending in bunch sprints these last few years because of a supposed lack of EPO.
Now be kind and enlighten me, how does, physically, riding faster thanks to EPO (or any other doping product, you name it) result in less group sprints ?
Aquarius wrote:
Yep, till 2003 a break usually made it, even in the EPO'ed 90's, so times were slower.
Since then it's still been very EPO'ed, but maybe less since 2010 or 2011. Yet the times have kept improving.
I know it's only a few seconds here and there, but we're talking about a ~160 seconds effort here, it's not like breaking the record for a 40 minutes mountain ascent by 3 seconds.
And if bikes have evolved, their weight has remained the same, so that's not much of a difference when it's all about going uphill.
I agree about tactics too, when you know it's going to end up that way you hardly bother wasting strengths prior, but still, when you add the resurrection of Contador, Valverde earlier this season already, and Gilbert breaking the Cauberg's record as well, I think (but it's an opinion, I may be wrong) that it draws a trend that I'm not too happy to see.
Interesting points as usual from you. I still want to keep from away from judging Contador, Valv or Gilbert though - probably because I like them too much.
Of course, breaking a record and thereby beating known dopers of the past is suspicious, then again I'd be more suspicious of a 40 minutes record climb being beaten by 3 seconds. I suppose that the shorter the effort is, the more likely it appears to me that a (theoretically) non-doper can beat someone with dope and set a new record against all those doper-times of the past.
Sorry mate, but what are we discussing here, when you are not ready to judge Contador (convicted doper) , Valverde (convicted doper) and Gilbert (everybody who has eyeballs, saw what is going on at least in 2011 + Ib arguren)??? If you are not ready to accept facts, rather skip the discussion.
Yup, I do know that Avin. I also know that they have served their bans. But nevermind, I guess we'll talk about the same at Liege, where a new record time will be presumably set. Edited by Shonak on 25-04-2014 08:56
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Shonak wrote:
Yup, I do know that Avin. I also know that they have served their bans. But nevermind, I guess we'll talk about the same at Liege, where a new record time will be presumably set.
I will rather wait for Tour/Vuelta with my bigger thoughts about Valverde or Contador, because if they would ride like before serving their bans (and they show this year that something like that is possible), how can one trust them? Technological jump in those three-five years is minimal, weight of the bike is same, so if they will dominate in similar manner, they are most likely in it again...
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 25-04-2014 09:29
Shonak wrote:
Yup, I do know that Avin. I also know that they have served their bans. But nevermind, I guess we'll talk about the same at Liege, where a new record time will be presumably set.
I will rather wait for Tour/Vuelta with my bigger thoughts about Valverde or Contador, because if they would ride like before serving their bans (and they show this year that something like that is possible), how can one trust them? Technological jump in those three-five years is minimal, weight of the bike is same, so if they will dominate in similar manner, they are most likely in it again...
Not sure about this so correct me if I'm wrong:
So they used doping earlier. Why? To train better, longer, make muscles stronger etc.
So they are caught for doping. Okay, they serve their 2-year ban. But their muscles are already stronger, their body is more capable. You can't undo doping. Say they use those 2 years to maintain their strength.
Isn't it possible they are so good now partly becaue of their talent and the other part because they still have their body they got through their old doping?
This is just a thought, don't know if that's possible/realistic
I don't think so Ian, as the strength,energy,power,muscles aren't something permanent, but something temporary, so if you don't "update" your muscles normally, they'll lose their strength, power, energy, explosiveness and whatnot.
I think they're definitely weaker, as once you accustom body to something, doping in this case, it will hardly get back into its pre-ban shape. Not sure about the stuff how long it stays in our blood tho, never thought about that.
I still want to keep from away from judging Contador, Valv or Gilbert though - probably because I like them too much. 
