What is your religion?
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Crommy |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:48
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dienblad wrote:
I must say, that this is a pretty useless discussion. Believers wont convince non-believers and non-believers won't convince believers.
Normally I do, and your own personal religious belief that you've shared is fine. It seems like you may be a deist?
But then people started saying genocide is justified if it is committed by a higher being. That kind of thinking should be challenged.
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fcancellara |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:49
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Lets agree to disagree on genocide in the Bible, this is not going anywhere from this point.
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Crommy |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:49
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dienblad wrote:
Don't forget that in these days it was pretty normal to slay an entire population, like it was untill... well, nowadays in some countries
Do you think that should excuse God?
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cunego59 |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:50
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dienblad wrote:
I must say, that this is a pretty useless discussion. Believers wont convince non-believers and non-believers won't convince believers.
I come across this argument always everytime I'm in a religious discussion. But that's not what the discussion is about. It's not about convincing, but about understanding your opposite. Extremely important. And I must say that I have learned quite a bit about some beliefs already in this thread
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Crommy |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:51
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fcancellara wrote:
Lets agree to disagree on genocide in the Bible, this is not going anywhere from this point.
No.
If you think genocide is tolerable, simply because a higher being says it's OK, something is seriously wrong with you.
How about genocides committed by alternative religions?
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issoisso |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:51
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dienblad wrote:
Don't forget that in these days it was pretty normal to slay an entire population, like it was untill... well, nowadays in some countries
Yes, that's the point.
The morals of when the bible was written were completely different to those of any modern society. The bible is woefully inadequate as a set of rules to be followed in this day and age
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
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Neillster |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:55
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cunego59 wrote:
Okay, thanks. But as far as I see it, it's enough form them to see the world around them and think to themselves "wow, this is so beautiful and unique, this can only be created by some kind of god", right?
Well, I would say that the truth of God is buried in each one of us, though many chose to bury it even deeper and never let it come to light.
To me, the logic seems wrong. It's circular reasoning. Imagine I'm saying it's a sin to have a nose - so everyone is bound to be a sinner. But in the same sentence, I'm saying that, in my infinite graciousness, I forgive you all for having a nose, and now you'll have to be thankful and obedient for all times.
It may not be the perfect image, but do you see what I'm going for?
€: Maybe a better one: You're PE teacher says, everyone who runs 100m slower than one second gets an F and will fail the course. And then, after you've all failed, he says, well, at least you've tried, so I'll give you a D and you pass. Would you be thankful for the D or angry that he didn't give you a fair chance to get an A or a B in the first place? (it's not my intention to offend your god to a PE teacher, btw )
Certainly an interesting illustration, though it gives the idea that by doing your best you can get into heaven. A very important point about Christianity is There is nothing you can do to earn your way to heaven. 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.' Ephesians 2:8-9.
Perhaps a better illustration is at a bank. You have a loan to pay back, but you do not have the means to pay it. If you don't, the bank will repossess your house, and you and your family will be thrown out onto the streets with nothing. Then along comes the bankers son. He says to the banker, 'Cancel their debt, I'll pay it instead.' The son takes the hit and pays off the massive loan you had built up, allowing you to go back to your home. |
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fcancellara |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:55
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Crommy wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
Lets agree to disagree on genocide in the Bible, this is not going anywhere from this point.
No.
If you think genocide is tolerable, simply because a higher being says it's OK, something is seriously wrong with you.
How about genocides committed by alternative religions?
Not a higher being; the highest, to whom we owe everything.
I made my point, you made yours, I will not answer any more critical questions about this.
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fcancellara |
Posted on 17-01-2013 22:56
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issoisso wrote:
dienblad wrote:
Don't forget that in these days it was pretty normal to slay an entire population, like it was untill... well, nowadays in some countries
Yes, that's the point.
The morals of when the bible was written were completely different to those of any modern society. The bible is woefully inadequate as a set of rules to be followed in this day and age
That is why we should not take the Bible literally. Not anymore.
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Posted on 22-11-2024 06:51
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TheManxMissile |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:00
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This thread is what makes this forum great.
Its just actual debate with proper arguments from both sides, and its brilliant to read.
Of course all debate is entirely pointless as no-one is going to change their views because of what they read here. But its nice to see people having a good old civil argument.
I am proud to say i am not religious at all. For a while i tried Bhuddhism but it didnt stick (i love me some dead animal). My parents are Atheist, i went to a Church of England primary school but they took in anyone.
The main reason i went of religion altogether and generally write it off as hipocrasy and a farce (no offence, you'll see my point in a minute) came at Secondary school.
It is a Christian School, has its own chapel. Thats all fine, no deal, quite nice actually.
What really was bad, every Tuesday are Wednesday every student had to go to Chapel for 1 period (35mins). Sing songs (90% hymns), listen to a reading and a sermon. Then every Sunday (it was a boarding school) every single kid had to go to a Chapel Service for 1hour.
If you didn't go on Tuesday/Wednesday you got a Detention (1hour of forced work/reading on a Saturady night (the night when fun things were put on)) and if you didnt go on Sunday you got a Detention, had to see the Head Master and lost all Saturday night privileges for at least a week (usually two).
This applied to all pupils. Yes all pupils. Even those who were not Christian. one of my best friends was Jade and another Hindu. Twice a week they were forced by school rules to go to these Christian services.
I just couldn't believe this. I spent the final 2 years there arguing about it with the Reverend and the Deputy Head. But of course i lost.
This killed any remaining religiousness in me for long time. I would like to see anyone defend this whilst sticking to their religious teachings and general basic human rights. (not saying debate this, but the whole thing is just ridiculous)
Anyway, i know lots of religious people and most of them are great and fine. But i know there are more examples like this and worse. And frankly i couldn't side with any group who supported or allowed such things.
Which is why i am not religious and view it all as hipocrasy and farce (again no offence intended)
Final thing i will say now. One of best friends is now a true Christian believer. And thank f**k! They were really struggling with some personal issues and in discovering Christianity they became a much happier and more active person.
For all its potted past and present, religion does make a massive positive impact on many peoples lives.
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Neillster |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:00
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Domestique
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fcancellara wrote:
issoisso wrote:
dienblad wrote:
Don't forget that in these days it was pretty normal to slay an entire population, like it was untill... well, nowadays in some countries
Yes, that's the point.
The morals of when the bible was written were completely different to those of any modern society. The bible is woefully inadequate as a set of rules to be followed in this day and age
That is why we should not take the Bible literally. Not anymore.
Then what parts should we take literally? Where do we draw the line? |
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cunego59 |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:00
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Neillster wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
Okay, thanks. But as far as I see it, it's enough form them to see the world around them and think to themselves "wow, this is so beautiful and unique, this can only be created by some kind of god", right?
Well, I would say that the truth of God is buried in each one of us, though many chose to bury it even deeper and never let it come to light.
To me, the logic seems wrong. It's circular reasoning. Imagine I'm saying it's a sin to have a nose - so everyone is bound to be a sinner. But in the same sentence, I'm saying that, in my infinite graciousness, I forgive you all for having a nose, and now you'll have to be thankful and obedient for all times.
It may not be the perfect image, but do you see what I'm going for?
€: Maybe a better one: You're PE teacher says, everyone who runs 100m slower than one second gets an F and will fail the course. And then, after you've all failed, he says, well, at least you've tried, so I'll give you a D and you pass. Would you be thankful for the D or angry that he didn't give you a fair chance to get an A or a B in the first place? (it's not my intention to offend your god to a PE teacher, btw )
Certainly an interesting illustration, though it gives the idea that by doing your best you can get into heaven. A very important point about Christianity is There is nothing you can do to earn your way to heaven. 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.' Ephesians 2:8-9.
Perhaps a better illustration is at a bank. You have a loan to pay back, but you do not have the means to pay it. If you don't, the bank will repossess your house, and you and your family will be thrown out onto the streets with nothing. Then along comes the bankers son. He says to the banker, 'Cancel their debt, I'll pay it instead.' The son takes the hit and pays off the massive loan you had built up, allowing you to go back to your home.
I really like the bank example. Because it's even better to illustrate my point: You see, the major point that you have left out is that I have the debts because the owner of the bank has full access to my account and randomly decided to put in into a huge minus, a minus that I will never be able to compensate. And then he gives his son the money, who pays off the debt that his father created, and I have to be grateful. But without the bank owner and his son, I wouldn't have the debt either, and I wouldn't owe anyone anything. That's what I meant with circular reasoning.
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Crommy |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:02
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fcancellara wrote:
Crommy wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
Lets agree to disagree on genocide in the Bible, this is not going anywhere from this point.
No.
If you think genocide is tolerable, simply because a higher being says it's OK, something is seriously wrong with you.
How about genocides committed by alternative religions?
Not a higher being; the highest, to whom we owe everything.
I made my point, you made yours, I will not answer any more critical questions about this.
So we have an obligation to God. But what about God's obligation to Man? What God slaughters his children because they broke rules he set, when he made it so his children would always break these rules?
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fcancellara |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:04
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Neillster wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
issoisso wrote:
dienblad wrote:
Don't forget that in these days it was pretty normal to slay an entire population, like it was untill... well, nowadays in some countries
Yes, that's the point.
The morals of when the bible was written were completely different to those of any modern society. The bible is woefully inadequate as a set of rules to be followed in this day and age
That is why we should not take the Bible literally. Not anymore.
Then what parts should we take literally? Where do we draw the line?
Everyone should judge that for themselves.
@TMM - Nobody should be forced to go to sermons etc.
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cunego59 |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:06
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fcancellara wrote:
@TMM - Nobody should be forced to go to sermons etc.
According to Neillster, it's their obligation as good Christians to spread the gospel and save the unbelievers from hell (as far as I understood him). So according to his strict view (that probably the boarding school director shares), yes, they should be forced to...
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issoisso |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:06
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Neillster wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
issoisso wrote:
dienblad wrote:
Don't forget that in these days it was pretty normal to slay an entire population, like it was untill... well, nowadays in some countries
Yes, that's the point.
The morals of when the bible was written were completely different to those of any modern society. The bible is woefully inadequate as a set of rules to be followed in this day and age
That is why we should not take the Bible literally. Not anymore.
Then what parts should we take literally? Where do we draw the line?
That would've been my next question
Crommy wrote:
So we have an obligation to God. But what about God's obligation to Man? What God slaughters his children because they broke rules he set, when he made it so his children would always break these rules?
Powerless calfs bred for slaughter.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
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Crommy |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:06
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TheManxMissile wrote:
This applied to all pupils. Yes all pupils. Even those who were not Christian. one of my best friends was Jade and another Hindu. Twice a week they were forced by school rules to go to these Christian services.
I just couldn't believe this. I spent the final 2 years there arguing about it with the Reverend and the Deputy Head. But of course i lost.
Unfortunately, your school was actually following UK law.
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fcancellara |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:06
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Crommy wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
Crommy wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
Lets agree to disagree on genocide in the Bible, this is not going anywhere from this point.
No.
If you think genocide is tolerable, simply because a higher being says it's OK, something is seriously wrong with you.
How about genocides committed by alternative religions?
Not a higher being; the highest, to whom we owe everything.
I made my point, you made yours, I will not answer any more critical questions about this.
So we have an obligation to God. But what about God's obligation to Man? What God slaughters his children because they broke rules he set, when he made it so his children would always break these rules?
God is God, we aren't.
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fcancellara |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:08
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cunego59 wrote:
fcancellara wrote:
@TMM - Nobody should be forced to go to sermons etc.
According to Neillster, it's their obligation as good Christians to spread the gospel and save the unbelievers from hell (as far as I understood him). So according to his strict view (that probably the boarding school director shares), yes, they should be forced to...
It was just my opinion
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TheManxMissile |
Posted on 17-01-2013 23:08
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Crommy wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
This applied to all pupils. Yes all pupils. Even those who were not Christian. one of my best friends was Jade and another Hindu. Twice a week they were forced by school rules to go to these Christian services.
I just couldn't believe this. I spent the final 2 years there arguing about it with the Reverend and the Deputy Head. But of course i lost.
Unfortunately, your school was actually following UK law.
The fuck UK Law
Good thing im getting out as soon as i finish Uni (or sooner with a lot of luck)
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