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[CT] Questions
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 27-12-2014 23:20
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Calendar changes should purely be about cutting races, not altering the make up of races. I'd rather see a 21day GT and 2 new 3-day races instead of a 15day GT and a 4day PN and 1/2day Roubaix. Straight off i can think of races i personally would cut from the WT because there are so many similar stage races and classics there that you can easily reduce race days without impacting the feel/style of the division.
And at PCT and CT level i can pick out several races to cut because of poor AI and a few more that are basically clones of each other.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 21:59
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 28-12-2014 00:27
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Smowz wrote:
Away from training and another issue is the amount of races - in the reporters section there has been talk in fact confirmed I think by SN before to try and condense the season further. One thing that needs looking at is the general length of stage races. Many pretour races can be reduced to 4 or 5 stages.
Basque and Qatar for example could easily be four stage races. Suisse, Dauphine, PN, Tirreno, Volta, TONE etc. could easily be 5 stage races. When it comes to GT's could they be squeezed down to 15 stages? It is generally where reporters come unstuck is the stage races. The question is how recovery would be effected?
Shortening races risks destroys the character of a race, and it most likely changes the role it fulfills in the calendar. There may be scope to cut a one or two days off a race, but shortening GTs is as terrible an idea in real life as it is here.
roturn has shown the best way to approach reporting GTs. He started playing the Tour at about the same time that I started playing the Vuelta. And the end result is that the Vuelta saw reporting gaps, while roturn had plenty of time to play and write the reports, so gets to be praised for posting consistency. Likewise with the Giro I was able to start that in advance and then averaged at over 1 report a day, since some days had 2 stages. Spread a longer race over a longer period of time and it is less reporting burden. Do it early enough and it removes the time pressure too.
Removing races is the main way that the calendar reduction is going to be approached. I have a PT calendar in mind which has 2 stage races removed, and a much shortened Vuelta a Colombia, and perhaps further reductions are possible too.
It's easier in PCT/CT as all that needs to be done is to maintain the current ratio of types of races, and just have less.
Smowz wrote:
Something else I thought I would put out there is to place ITT's and TTT's always at stage one? The exception of course is GT's where there should be a later one.
Variety is vital. Put them all at stage one adds a huge bias to the best time triallists in terms of ranking points, given the extra bonus they get for taking the classification leads as well as winning the stage. At the same time, it removes points scoring opportunities for sprinters who could then never lead a race. But I'm not sure where your point applies. Late ITTs in GTs are important to have, but in other races weaker recovery for time triallists should be less prevalent. Making them all pre-climbing stages can also affect the Mountain AI dynamic. It's good in some races for climbers to have the chance to gain time early on time triallists, and perhaps take the race lead - rather than always going into the Mountains having to chase time on the better TTers.
TTTs are always early in the race anyway, so that's not an issue.
TheManxMissile wrote:
And at PCT and CT level i can pick out several races to cut because of poor AI.
Well I have to rely on managers pointing out specific races where the AI does not work, as I do not play much PCM outside of the ManGame. So a list of such races would help.
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| Roman |
Posted on 28-12-2014 19:29
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Grand Tour Specialist
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In my opinion, some races could be done only by reporting results. 'No TV coverage' would really help to speed up the game. And even almost all reports has a fantastic quality and are huge, I would prefer to shorten them a lot to get this game flow faster.
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| SotD |
Posted on 29-12-2014 10:22
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World Champion
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I kinda agree with that... The quality is already immense, but the quantity has dropped quite a lot. In a game like this, the balance is important, and imo it has been going slowly, but surely, into the direction of quality over the past seasons. I don't know if it's the reporters who really wants this, or they feel pressured to deliver this amount of work, because others do so aswell, but as a reader, I don't really need it to be honest.
I do really want to read everything, especially in the PT, but I tend to often drift off as I'm really not the reading type, and unless my own rider is present at something that could be huge for the team, I would normally scroll down to the end of the stage quite fast. I have even done that in the Tour de France, where I just browse for my riders names to see if they attack or crash, and if they don't then the final mountain is enough for me to read about. And even then, I take myself scrolling a bit, because there is a LOT of info about riders in 15-25th position, and unless my own rider is falling apart, being there, I don't really care for those positions.
I do enjoy the fact that reporters want to put that much effort into it, and as a role player, you get a lot of information, but in earlier seasons you had to use your imagination for mid-race stuff, or perhaps make up a story of yourself as to why your decent rider underperformed throughout. I kinda liked that, and I honestly feel that is equally good as detailing everything out.
I would much much rather have the Tour de France done in 15 days, rather than 21, despite the quality of the reports being slightly worse. I do, however, accept if people have a need for this stuff that makes the game go slower, but I can't enhance it. I really can't.
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| Smowz |
Posted on 29-12-2014 10:44
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Well we have talked in the reporters forum about having 'minimal' reports - we are seeing a bit of variety. One has to remember that what may seem an irrelavent race for some is seen as the most important race for others.
I have been a bit blah about some of the PCT and CT races this year - just haven't had the time to get into them. Which is a shame considering the amount.
@SN regarding the TT's: I am obviously biased currently owning Coppel. I have felt this year there has been a lot of hilly/mountain TT's or later TT's which have meant guys like Fiedler, Coppel, Cornu, Posthuma, Kittel etc. have had to fight for scraps. I guess Tasmania is there and the TONE race.
Put a flat TT before tough mountains the TTers win. Put a flat TT after mountain stage the flat TTer will struggle to get anyway near as in the Dauphine stage 8.
Putting them stage 1 all the time is obviously stupid far too extreme from me to suggest sorry about that - but there is only ever some short prologue things on first stages this year so the TTers never actually get a chance to get ahead early other than in this years TTT at the tour as time gained in prologues is paltry.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 29-12-2014 11:10
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Variety is vital. Put them all at stage one adds a huge bias to the best time triallists in terms of ranking points, given the extra bonus they get for taking the classification leads as well as winning the stage.
I feel like this would be the thing that we want rather than a problem. Because at this point, having a huge TT beast is nice, but it does not pay off much in terms of ranking points, especially in races with for example five flat stages followed by TT. That time trialist is only a spectator during the whole race and has the only stage to grab his chances. Yeah, he can win overall (not always, as sprinters challenge the top spot if TT is not 25+km long), but in the end it could be better race for sprinters than TTists, which is sad, when you see how sprinting/climbing oriented the PCT calendar already is.
PCT is totally dominated by stage racers and sprintes, so i dont see few more points for TTist as the problem...
I seriously think about getting rid of Ignatiev just after one season, especially because of this. But i cant encourage anybody to go after him, as he has very limited options to challenge top stage racers and sprinters for high ranking spot, despite being a whole 1 overall point better than second guy in PCT (5th overall best rider in PCT is already 2 points lower).
Just before someone comes and tells me that Ignatiev can win three more races this year, i know (even when i higly doubt it), but even then, he does not stand a chance in PCT overall ranking, because his point scoring is limited also by the thing that we discuss here. In six stages long race with a conclusive TT, he can realistically score only in last stage and GC, while sprinters can score for five stages and in many ocassions, GC too...
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 29-12-2014 11:11
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I see that Smowz has similar "problems" with Coppel 
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| SotD |
Posted on 29-12-2014 16:18
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But what exactly is the problem? Ignatiev might be in the top 5 individual, but if we look into the wages he isn't the best paid rider...
Tanel Kangert - 533.000
Marko Kump - 565.000
Beñat Intxausti - 550.000
Rigoberto Úran - 500.000
Diego Ulissi - 445.000
Mark Cavendish - 650.000
Caleb Ewan - 400.000
Ki Ho Choi - 400.000
Carlos Betancourt - 620.000
Magno Nazaret - 460.000
Janez Brajkovic - 650.000
Domenico Pozzovivo - 940.000
Jonathan McEvoy - 420.000
Heinrich Haussler - 450.000
Dario Cataldo - 525.000
Jukka Vastaranta - 425.000
Danilo Napolitano - 450.000
Mikhail Ignatiev - 540.000
Walter Pedraza - 410.000
André Greipel - 480.000
Romain Vanderbiest - 560.000
Robert Kiserlovski - 850.000
David Abal - 500.000
Enrico Franzoi - 525.000
Matej Mohoric - 425.000
Hassen Ben Nasser - 620.000
Silvio Herklotz - 525.000
I don't see anything implying that Ignatiev should be unique and a PCT individual winner, just because he is the best TT'er in the rank. I don't see why he shouldn't be able to be in the top 10 though. The wages are CLEARLY indicating, in the PT, that the best TTers are no way near the best point scorers, and we all know that. Jerome Coppel have been in the top 20 I think, and his wages are fairly low for a rider in that area.
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| Smowz |
Posted on 29-12-2014 18:12
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@SotD: The reason Coppel and Ignatiev's wages are relatively low is because they haven't been in the free agency since like forever.
A lot of the riders listers have high wages because they have been in the free agency either this or last season. There are several decent sprinters in the PT and PCT who don't have those sorts of wages and a number of decent enough climbers and hilly classic riders - you know the ones that have been carefully retained from free agency high wage hell.
Guys like
Juan Van Heerden - 150,000
Eric Mohs - 218,000
Ben Swift - 400,000
Daniele Bennati - 350,000
Oscar Guerao - 250,000
Dmitri Claeys - 325,000
Cesere Di Maggio - 140,000
Simone Ponzi - 580,000
Frank Schleck 600,000
Peter Velits 350,000 - obvious a BS wage because of uber training but still
Stefan Denifl - 420,000
Andrei Amador - 670,000
Pieter VanSpreybrouck - 300,000
Danny Summerhill - 270,000
Adam Blythe - 330,000
compare to leading TTers
jerome Coppel - 420,000
Domique Cornu - 220,000
People noticed correctly that sprinters get lots of chances to score points whereas cobblers and definately TTists get less. This is one reason why sprinters prices webt completely crazy last transfer season and why also guys went training crazy on those stage racers.
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| SotD |
Posted on 29-12-2014 20:02
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
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Maybe so, but there are also A LOT of more sprinters to compete against, and many of the riders you have listed are not performing any better than Coppel or Ignatiev.
I think that you might be able to put TT's differently from time to time, but I really don't see anything indicating that TT'ers should be in a booth where they can't deliver according to their wages.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 29-12-2014 22:48
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Team Manager
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In terms of PCT, I agree that there isn't enough variety of placement of TT in a race this year. It is hard to balance all of the different factors involved. A lot of the TT focused races do have the TT in the second half of the race.
But there are currently enough TT-stage races in PCT that mean Ignatiev could theoretically use all his race days for races that he could win overall - and that is as good as you can get really. (In practical terms, the choice of races to prioritise may mean that he has to use 2/4 race days on something like a hill classic if an extra stage race can't fit the remaining gap - but that's all part of the calendar and race planning phase for each manager to handle)
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| Roman |
Posted on 30-12-2014 00:59
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Well I don't think Velits' wage will go much higher in the next season, he was obviously trained a lot, but is he really better than was Uran or Henao Montoya? I had to pay so much for Rujano and Sagan, because prices for hilly and GT riders are so huge, it's insane. But you can clearly get a great value in dominant riders like Trofimov, Bewley or Coppel... Or in a great sprinter, when you are having a really good sprint train.
The main problem for me was in the last couple of seasons to get a replacement for a good hilly rider like Alex Efimkin. It was really hard to get a rider who is at least able to get a decent result in hilly races. I paid more than a half of money I got for Uran for Sagan. And why are so expensive hilly and GT riders? Because IMO it is almost impossible to get a dominant cobble rider or a sprinter. So that's why I bought Velits and invested into him to make a great GT rider, and that's why I will invest into Howard/Vesely and Sagan in the next couple of seasons. The chances I can get a good rider in sprinter/hilly areas are really small. The chances I can get a great GT rider without training are quite small as well. I can imagine I am not the only one with problems like that.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 30-12-2014 06:29
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World Champion
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@SotD: Smowz already pointed out the facts that Ignatiev or Coppel are on this sort of wages because of avoiding free agency, Coppel would be easily 1mil wage rider and Ignatiev maybe 800-900k?
In fact, Coppel is 1,5 points lower in overall than Ignatiev, who is top15 rider in the game overall wise and with huge gap best TT-stage racer in the PCT division stats wise. (but majority of us know, how stats work, or rather does not work in PCM13). So we have huge overall rider (which influnce cost of his training and other things), that has limited chance to score point thanks to TT-stage races being actually oriented to other specialities than TT.
@SN: I agree with both things, i am not trying to give impression that i dont have races in PCT where to send Ignatiev. But i have to send him to a race, that is rated as "for TT specialists" and in fact, more points can be scored by sprinter there, while sprinters have other 10 classics in the calendar...
Races look perfect on paper for someone of his abilities, but reality of PCM 13 and structure of the race makes gives a high risk of fail. 
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 30-12-2014 06:36
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World Champion
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@Roman: That dominant rider you mentioned in Coppel is currently 48th in PT rankings...you get rid of him just in time.
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 30-12-2014 08:29
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Man Game CT/PCT ismore about the climbers, hilly specialists and sprinters. They cost more and score more points. TT riders usually only have one stage and the GC to go for but that is the same in real life so I fail to see the problem.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 30-12-2014 08:39
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Luis Leon Sanchez wrote:
They cost more and score more points
That is why Ignatiev has 10th highest wage in PCT? (also 8 from these 9 ahead of him are overpriced from free agency unlike him, only Brajkovic and Intxausti are worth that money).
I am not speaking about Ford or Tennant here, but about likes of Coppel and Ignatiev, just to make it clear...
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| SotD |
Posted on 30-12-2014 11:50
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Avin, which TT riders indicates that either of them would be worth 1mio? I dont think anyone besides Cancellara has ever been above 700K. If Im wrong then correct me.
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| SotD |
Posted on 30-12-2014 11:55
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If you select a TTer or cobbler then that is what you get. I dont Think the TTers are doing much better IRL a part from those who are also strong elsewhere.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 30-12-2014 12:11
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World Champion
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Yeah, but these two are not only TTists, but i am already backing off from trying to give some thoughts here, as nobody seems to understand my point and it most likely seems like i am only rooting for my horse. 
Last note to the wages you mentioned. From what i saw on the market in last two years, you can be sure both Ignatiev and Copple would go for 700-800k+ for sure, at least to PCT, when you compare their potential scores (theoretical, because 2014 reality inb man-game is different) to some of the guys that went for same price.
Ignatiev is still 540k and he avoided free agency for how long, 4 years? (i cant check these sort of things for sure, because old transfer threads are gone apart from discussions). I doubt his former wage when he joined Wiggle or how was the team name back then...
Jph27 was going to spend like 2millions in cash to buy Coppel from Roman before it went down iirc, so i am surprised so many people here rate them as one-trick ponies that should not score well now...
I would also not operate with real life things, because PCM has nothing to do with real life cycling and many other things were put aside with saying that we dont want replicate real life here, but have fun. You cant remove Ignatiev from the game now and he is best rider in PCT stats wise, so i am surprised to see him rated as TTists that should do nothing else here by veteran manager...
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| SotD |
Posted on 30-12-2014 17:36
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Well they are basically one trick ponies. None of them can win anything besides TTs and breakaways, when looking at what else is there, but that clearly doesnt make them useless or non scoring.
The most expensive riders are those who can win GTs or those who can win multiple terrains like Boonen og Cancellara.
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