The GC is wide-open really. And that's coool Tomorrow's stage is an important one. I expect some GC-favourites to more or less blow up tomorrow...
Btw, Larsson impresses me! I never thought he could keep up this well. Even though he might crack sooner or later, he has done everything great so far I think. Still less than 3 mins to the best. B)
Pantani is one of if not the greatest climber of all time. I have always thought he was clean, as he hurt himself so much on the climbs that drugs would not have helped. But he was accused and kicked out of either the Tour or the Giro (can't remember which one) and had too retire because of evidence against him. He became depressed and died of a Cocaine overdose in 2004. But watching him climb, regardless of whether or not he doped, is the most amazing thing. It was absolutely beautiful
I agree with Aquarius (gasp...did I really say that? )
the number of breaks making it in 2001 and before the 90s was huge, while in most other years it was almost zero.
Look at the Disco team of 2004, they were all out in front from the start of the stage to the end of it on most stages, yet they're still there at the finish? and Azevedo even goes top5? no way.
Look at 2005. ever read the IM conversation between Vaughters and Andreu? they all got dropped on one small little hill in the stage to Mulhouse, because as one of them put it "no refill", yet the next day was a rest day (= blood refill) and suddenly they're controlling again.
Dope makes the races less exciting. if this was 1995, the differences in this stage would've been zero. even Spezialetti would've still been there at the finish.
Favorites started getting dropped when they finally got to inclines over 10%, which sadly came very close to the finish, only.
Today we should see them a lot sooner.
Osmose, here's one of my personal favorite videos: the day Pantani made himself known by attacking InduraÃn and Berzin in the incredibly steep Mortirolo (if you're curious, the stage next saturday includes the Mortirolo )
Even though yesterday's stage was not as fast as in Pantani's days or even Basso's days, it seems to me that this Giro is still far from being clean.
People who didn't sign the ethical agreement and who won stages on this Giro : Gabriele Bosisio, Matteo Priamo, Pavel Brutt, Alessandro Bertolini, Emanuele Sella. 5 guys on 14 stages, should I laugh or should I cry ?
Sella's power (70+8 kg) on the last climb yesterday was 405 W. Quite impressive after such a mountain stage and a long break. Of course it's nothing like Riis reaching 485 W on one single climb, but still...
Menchov managed to reach 425 W. More or less his Vuelta level (he usually does 430, 435 there).
Good thing is that the favourites group must have been closer to 420. When Basso was there, he reached about 460 on such climbs.
btw ,what do you have against azevedo? in is glory days, he could be a leader for every team of th peloton, in fact he was a personal pick of lance to help him
don't know this for sure, but i think i heard from the portuguese eurosport commentators, in some year(they didn't tell), lance cracked and azevedo was in front, and he was force to help lance
in the end of tdf, if azevedo didn't dropped to help his leader, by math,azevedo maybe could won tdf
since it was only in math, with all the other stages that he helped lance
im really full of confidence, but i really don't know what happen, it seems what sounded to me
Osmose wrote:
from the videos i saw, wooww what a beast
btw ,what do you have against azevedo? in is glory days, he could be a leader for every team of th peloton, in fact he was a personal pick of lance to help him
don't know this for sure, but i think i heard from the portuguese eurosport commentators, in some year(they didn't tell), lance cracked and azevedo was in front, and he was force to help lance
in the end of tdf, if azevedo didn't dropped to help his leader, by math,azevedo maybe could won tdf
since it was only in math, with all the other stages that he helped lance
im really full of confidence, but i really don't know what happen, it seems what sounded to me
I'm not sure what you're getting at. it seems you completely missed my point.
Edited by issoisso on 25-05-2008 11:11
Aquarius wrote:
Even though yesterday's stage was not as fast as in Pantani's days or even Basso's days, it seems to me that this Giro is still far from being clean.
At least it is getting cleaner (which is basically what you are saying :lol. In roads are being made, performances are slightly more human.
Aquarius wrote:
Even though yesterday's stage was not as fast as in Pantani's days or even Basso's days, it seems to me that this Giro is still far from being clean.
At least it is getting cleaner (which is basically what you are saying ). In roads are being made, performances are slightly more human.
But there is still widespread doping
It's not like we're expecting this peloton to be fully clean. not even close.
Edited by issoisso on 25-05-2008 11:12
tought that you were saying that it was unreal azevedo finish in top5
I was saying that it's unreal that the whole discovery team was working on the front the whole stage, and by the end of the final climb, most of them were still there, stage after stage. It's also unreal that Azevedo worked so hard for Armstrong and still finished top 5.
Then I compared that to stage 9 of the 2005 Tour where they all got dropped on a very easy climb.
And I mentioned the Instant Message conversation between Jonathan Vaughters and Frankie Andreu (two guys who rode for the team) that popped up in court, where one of them said that was because on that day they hadn't had their "refill" (blood transfusion), but the next day was a rest day and they came back out of it as strong as ever after pumping in the blood.
basically, this part of the conversation:
Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan
Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells
FDREU: they have it mastered. good point
Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine
One note about Pantani, the reason I don't think he doped was because I once read that he had registered a 60% hemocrit level as an early teenager, when it would have been almost impossible for him to dope. That is ridiculously high, but has been known to naturally occur in people, although it is very rare. I' not sure if what I read was true, and if it isn't, he certainly doped. But, unlike for other riders, I will lose no respect for him, he couldn't breathe when he reached the top of those mountains, and hurt himself really badly on every climb. Also, after a year of sitting at home in hiding, he comes out and blows away Lance on a few stages of the tour, who, as the previous posts have shown, was probably on the dope.
Also, isso, I knew about the conversation, but where can I see a transcript, I've always wanted to see it
Edited by Deadpool on 25-05-2008 11:58
Deadpool wrote:
One note about Pantani, the reason I don't think he doped was because I once read that he had registered a 60% hemocrit level as an early teenager, when it would have been almost impossible for him to dope. That is ridiculously high, but has been known to naturally occur in people, although it is very rare. I' not sure if what I read was true, and if it isn't, he certainly doped.
in 1995 he crashed and broke a leg on a descent. he was a professional then. it almost ended his career, but he came back in 1997. several years later, his blood sample from that crash was re-examined with newer methods. 60% haematocrit, indicating enormous quantities of EPO.
In the Giro 1999, he had his haematocrit at 48.2% before the penultimate stage. then after it, it was at over 50%. he was thrown out and his depression started there.
As for youngsters doping, it's been well established that in certain countries, most youth riders are doped up to the gills.
can we please stop about doping? its bad enough that half the peloton takes it, so let it rest en lets us focus on more important matter like the giro d'Italia?
prevent hangovers --> stay drunk
pozzato, basically the most stupid cyclist around
Deadpool wrote:
One note about Pantani, the reason I don't think he doped was because I once read that he had registered a 60% hemocrit level as an early teenager, when it would have been almost impossible for him to dope. That is ridiculously high, but has been known to naturally occur in people, although it is very rare. I' not sure if what I read was true, and if it isn't, he certainly doped.
in 1995 he crashed and broke a leg on a descent. he was a professional then. it almost ended his career, but he came back in 1997. several years later, his blood sample from that crash was re-examined with newer methods. 60% haematocrit, indicating enormous quantities of EPO.
In the Giro 1999, he had his haematocrit at 48.2% before the penultimate stage. then after it, it was at over 50%. he was thrown out and his depression started there.
As for youngsters doping, it's been well established that in certain countries, most youth riders are doped up to the gills.
Okay, so he doped, I still don't lose any respect for him, and with only Pantani and Hamilton is that the case, what they did was superhuman, even on dope, Pantani's climbing style, and Hamilton's 2003 tour were amazing feats. But, as requested, I will stop on this issue, as the Giro this year is shaping to be brilliant, and I don't want to ruin it for anyone.
Tomorrow's stage is an important one. I expect some GC-favourites to more or less blow up tomorrow...
ops:, i heard he was dead? if so, how?
, you make the call)
)
