|
No barriers in your mind
|
| Stairs |
Posted on 30-08-2008 16:23
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 259
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
Stairs wrote:
Okay, then, you don't believe in anything - how are we supposed to clean this mess called Cycling up?  I believe there are basically three categories of teams among the best 30 professional teams. The one with team doping, the one that don't mind about their riders taking dope on their own, and the ones fighting doping for real.
How to clean it ? That's another very long debate, tihs topic might not be the place for it.
Oh, and despite being raised as a catholic, I'm a scientific/cartesian/rationnalist/logician, I have to doubt from everything before I might eventually trust it.
Why don't you eat a frog
Never.
|
| |
|
|
| matt493 |
Posted on 30-08-2008 16:27
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3549
Joined: 01-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
now all mind barriers cleared, i definitely don't think Vandevelde is doped.
|
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 30-08-2008 16:31
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
matt493 wrote:
now all mind barriers cleared, i definitely don't think Vandevelde is doped.
A former US Postal, Liberty Seguros and CSC rider. Why not?
Edited by brun sweater on 30-08-2008 16:34
|
| |
|
|
| ladagnous |
Posted on 30-08-2008 16:39
|
Stagiare
Posts: 214
Joined: 21-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
only those team
he will probably go to astana next |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 04:45
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 30-08-2008 17:54
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
brun sweater wrote:
matt493 wrote:
now all mind barriers cleared, i definitely don't think Vandevelde is doped.
A former US Postal, Liberty Seguros and CSC rider. Why not?
Good point..more like Valverde is clean at the moment |
| |
|
|
| matt493 |
Posted on 30-08-2008 18:44
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3549
Joined: 01-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
just because he rides for a certain team doesnt mean he is doped.
|
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 30-08-2008 18:49
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
no of course not. I don't wanted to imply he is doped, just curious towards why he in particular shouldn't be doped? |
| |
|
|
| Crommy |
Posted on 30-08-2008 20:45
|
World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Because he's American. And as we all know, no American is and has been doped.
Anyway, for the doping in cycling to be cleaned up, you need life bans (for both riders and teams), tests brought in stealthily for new substances (the CERA one was a pretty good example with Ricco), a clean out of the "old guard", who still seem to think doping is fine (issoisso's illegal downloads metaphor), more money towards anti-doping controls plus research, and somebody leading cycling who is very tough on doping.
That would be a good start
|
| |
|
|
| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 30-08-2008 21:40
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7681
Joined: 19-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
if they'd used their full power in the tdf by prosecuting a rider, leading to a possible jail sentence, then that would make a big difference.
|
| |
|
|
| Crommy |
Posted on 30-08-2008 23:33
|
World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
wackojackohighcliffe wrote:
if they'd used their full power in the tdf by prosecuting a rider, leading to a possible jail sentence, then that would make a big difference.
Exactly. Currently, cyclists can get away with it in most cases, plus the penalty is too lenient even if they do get caught
|
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 31-08-2008 08:39
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Going to jail is way out of proportion in my view. Even lifetime bans after first offence is too harsh, I'd say. There's nothing to suggest that a harder punishment will provide lesser dopingcases? And punishing the teams doesn't seem realistic. If we look at the Saunier story, it seems the teams already get punished. |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 31-08-2008 08:54
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
sorry, but they don't. The team directors organize or at the very least enable the doping, then don't get punished. They are the ones that convince the riders they can't compete clean. They are the ones who perpetuate the doping culture.
If we keep them, the doping will never stop.
Edited by issoisso on 31-08-2008 08:54
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| doddy13 |
Posted on 31-08-2008 09:31
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7891
Joined: 04-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
brun sweater wrote:
Going to jail is way out of proportion in my view. Even lifetime bans after first offence is too harsh, I'd say. There's nothing to suggest that a harder punishment will provide lesser dopingcases? And punishing the teams doesn't seem realistic. If we look at the Saunier story, it seems the teams already get punished.
really? You think lifetime bans aren't an option. Personally i think it's the best punishment we can possibly have. One offence, rip up license. Bye bye doper.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
|
| |
|
|
| schleck93 |
Posted on 31-08-2008 09:35
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3715
Joined: 04-08-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I'd also ays that lifetime bans would be a good idea.
BenBarnes wrote:
Thor wears a live rattlesnake as a condom.
|
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 31-08-2008 09:58
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
brun sweater wrote:
Going to jail is way out of proportion in my view. Even lifetime bans after first offence is too harsh, I'd say. There's nothing to suggest that a harder punishment will provide lesser dopingcases? And punishing the teams doesn't seem realistic. If we look at the Saunier story, it seems the teams already get punished. eople who do financial abuses and spoil other people from a lot of money go to jail, don't they ? It's a bit the same with dopers.
As for lifetime bans, it's a bit like death penalty... I agree there's not less criminality in countries where death penalty is applied. Now how much is the risk that the ones caught will do it again when it comes about cyclists and when it comes about regular criminals ? I'd say cyclists are much more likely to do it again, which is why death penalty, erm, I mean lifetime bans, could be a good thing for cyclists.
Sports director should also get banned when it's blood doping or that kind of stuff done during 3 weeks races and that can't be done by a rider on its own (it takes at least 3 or 4 people plus 1 rider to perform a proper blood transfusion). |
| |
|
|
| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 31-08-2008 10:20
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
this should be next step..go after team managers. Ok we punish drug addict (rider)..but never touch dealer.
Looks riddiculous eh?
Duval-Scott ..after TdF and no Vuelta invatation..lets clean that managment. best for us and best for team.
Edited by Guido Mukk on 31-08-2008 10:26
|
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 31-08-2008 12:00
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
But there already is lifetime ban after second offence. So my stand really isn't against lifetime bans. And i can perfectly understand the ones wanting to go hardline, but there's nothing academic out there to back such a stand. It's an emotionally reaction. And one shouldn't get carried away in emotions when it comes to deciding the law, mainly look at what we want to accomplish with the law.
Punishing team leaders is possible now, if there's proof. Of course, there's never any proof. But to start punishing people without proof of actual "criminal" behavior is ludicris! |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 31-08-2008 12:05
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
brun sweater wrote:
But there already is lifetime ban after second offence.
1. Where did you get that idea?
2. Very few riders have 2 offences, because the tests are so bad it's almost impossible to catch someone no matter how hard he dopes.
brun sweater wrote:
So my stand really isn't against lifetime bans. And i can perfectly understand the ones wanting to go hardline, but there's nothing academic out there to back such a stand. It's an emotionally reaction. And one shouldn't get carried away in emotions when it comes to deciding the law, mainly look at what we want to accomplish with the law.
Punishing team leaders is possible now, if there's proof. Of course, there's never any proof. But to start punishing people without proof of actual "criminal" behavior is ludicris!
No, it's not emotional. It's an attempt to deter riders from doping. Right now, the number of riders who stopped doping after being caught is about 20. 18 of those stopped because they retired. Basso, Kessler, Caruso, etc. will come back and start doping again immediately, just as the ones caught in years past have all come back to immediately dope.
"looking at what we want to accomplish" is exactly what we're doing here. This is not emotional.
Edited by issoisso on 31-08-2008 12:06
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 31-08-2008 12:25
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
I was sure that according to the WADA codex, a second offence would mean lifetime ban?
Maybe if pro cycling was a private thing, lifetime bans could be justified, but it isn't. Anybody have the right get a license, and compete for glory. And again, there's nothing scientific out there suggesting zero tolerance will keep people from breaking the law! Besides, I think that zero tolerance in a way is choosing not to take responsibility, not aknowledging that doping is a problem for our societies as a whole.
Doping is not such a serious offence that we should just cast away the values which we have build our societies upon. Of course, we can't allow cheating, but according to me, we must insist that the cheaters are mainly cheating themselves.
Cheaters will cheat no matter what. We have all cheated at some point in our lifes. |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 31-08-2008 12:40
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
brun sweater wrote:
we must insist that the cheaters are mainly cheating themselves.
So the guys who are better but are clean aren't being cheated out of their lives' dreams and millions in salaries and endorsements?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
