Marc Overmars: 18 mil. pounds profit in three years.
Nicolas Anelka: 22.5 mil. pounds profit in just 2!! years in the club. Bought for 500k.
Fabregas: 32.75 mil. pounds profit to silly Barcelona who did not see his potential and sold him to Arsenal for 3 mil. to bring him later for ten times as much.
Sure there should be some inflation considered, but i woul like to see manager who make similar profits from the players. I think you numbers concerning his overall loss are bad, because he made around 130mil. pounds profit just on these 9 players...
Edu: £6,000,000 loss in 4 seasons
Francis Jeffers: £5,400,000 loss in 4 seasons
Sylvain Wiltord: £13,000,000 loss in 4 seasons
Giovanni Van Bronckhorst: £5,500,000 loss in 2 seasons
Richard Wright: £2,500,000 loss in 1 season
Look, I can cherry-pick data too!
You have to consider the data as a whole to draw the meaningful conclusions issoisso does. You also must account for inflation, it's not negligible, especially in football (which, and I'm not 100% on this), has probably seen rises in wages/transfer costs at a much faster rate than inflation.
Marc Overmars: 18 mil. pounds profit in three years.
Nicolas Anelka: 22.5 mil. pounds profit in just 2!! years in the club. Bought for 500k.
Fabregas: 32.75 mil. pounds profit to silly Barcelona who did not see his potential and sold him to Arsenal for 3 mil. to bring him later for ten times as much.
Sure there should be some inflation considered, but i woul like to see manager who make similar profits from the players. I think you numbers concerning his overall loss are bad, because he made around 130mil. pounds profit just on these 9 players...
Edu: £6,000,000 loss in 4 seasons
Francis Jeffers: £5,400,000 loss in 4 seasons
Sylvain Wiltord: £13,000,000 loss in 4 seasons
Giovanni Van Bronckhorst: £5,500,000 loss in 2 seasons
Richard Wright: £2,500,000 loss in 1 season
Look, I can cherry-pick data too!
You have to consider the data as a whole to draw the meaningful conclusions issoisso does. You also must account for inflation, it's not negligible, especially in football (which, and I'm not 100% on this), has probably seen rises in wages/transfer costs at a much faster rate than inflation.
I mentioned inflation in my cherry-picking post, you missed that probably. And we both were presenting facts as we like them, i did it to show how easy it is...
And still losses you picked are far from profits i mentioned, around 100 mil. pounds in plus with mine and yours
I have no time to make the complete list, it would be an insane work, i am just raising doubts to the source of isso (you know sources are not right all the time, it does not mean it is true because you read that in the book) Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 26-06-2012 11:48
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
I mentioned inflation in my cherry-picking post, you missed that probably. And we both were presenting facts as we like them, i did it to show how easy it is...
And still losses you picked are far from profits i mentioned, around 100 mil. pounds in plus with mine and yours
I have no time to make the complete list, it would be an insane work, i am just raising doubts to the source of isso (you know sources are not right all the time, it does not mean it is true because you read that in the book)
During Wenger's era, Arsenal has a loss of over £22 million in the transfers market. And that's before doing any adjustement for inflation, so it would probably be higher then. I must say I was deeply surprised by this, because I also used to think of Wenger as a guy who does miracles with the transfers, but the figures say otherwise.
Edit: And before you bite me , I'm not comparing him with overspending teams like Chelsea, City or Real Madrid, I'm just saying he's not as wonderful as he's usually portrayed to be.
Edited by kumazan on 26-06-2012 12:20
He is actually when you look at all the other clubs who have more losses than Arsenal. And there are a lot in PL alone already.
If you look at Atletico who have over 200 mil of losses (in total I think) then the 22mil is really nothing.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
I mentioned inflation in my cherry-picking post, you missed that probably. And we both were presenting facts as we like them, i did it to show how easy it is...
And still losses you picked are far from profits i mentioned, around 100 mil. pounds in plus with mine and yours
I have no time to make the complete list, it would be an insane work, i am just raising doubts to the source of isso (you know sources are not right all the time, it does not mean it is true because you read that in the book)
During Wenger's era, Arsenal has a loss of over £22 million in the transfers market. And that's before doing any adjustement for inflation, so it would probably be higher then. I must say I was deeply surprised by this, because I also used to think of Wenger as a guy who does miracles with the transfers, but the figures say otherwise.
Edit: And before you bite me , I'm not comparing him with overspending teams like Chelsea, City or Real Madrid, I'm just saying he's not as wonderful as he's usually portrayed to be.
I will not bite you, i have admitted isso may be right with that figure of loose money (see my first responce post to his article). Such a big club as Arsenal cannot be run with + in transfers, Wenger is so good because the loss i not so big. But no need to discuss it further, i think everyone got what i wanted to say, now i will be stormed by isso's sarcasms and we will be all happy.
Edit: Btw do you know article u posted uses same source as isso have, the book Pay as you play? The numbers are very strange, they rated Nasri bought and sold for same value, that is nonsense or i got it wrong.
Edit 2: Forgot edit 2, i just got it wrong.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 26-06-2012 12:41
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Isso are you a politician?
Because you are one of the best i have ever seens in putting his own claims to apper as being thruth, meanwhile they have true basics but the rest is your own construction or a bit twisted facts...and that book probably added to that with one-sided attitude.
My own construction and twisted facts? Really? Then let's look at them in detail.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
You are right wit the loss he made during all that years, but if we had comparsion with another clubs in PL they would have hundreds of millions of loss, because 27,4 loss on players trades is nothing i think, when for example Barca has loss of more than 100 millions only during era of Guardiola.
Talk about cherry picking. You're going for an example that isn't even of the same league! Literally!
There are also a lot of Premier League managers with much smaller losses than Wenger. For instance, Moyes has qualified his team for the champions league and kept it around the millionaire spending teams, while having a total net spend of 18.7 Million. You simply can't compare teams that have different resources.
I mean, if you were to mention Man City, who cares how much they spend, they can afford it! So if Barcelona have a huge net spend, who cares...they can afford it!
The question is simply that Wenger's reputation is undeserved. He has a reputation for making a profit. He hasn't.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
And it is true Wenger had some bad buys, everyone has (Jeffers i just LOL), but he has so many great buys that this is easily forgotten.
Before 2005 Arsenal was splashing the cash much more and they were enormously successful, now they stoped also because of building the new stadium which is very very costly. But give Wenger some money and he will make you the team of champions, look at how many great young players he developed.
So, how is that in any way different from what I said? I specifically said he'd make a great team that plays brilliant football that won't win unless you give him money to spend. Your counterargument to that is that he doesn't win because he doesn't have money to spend and he'll win if you give him money?? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!!!
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
And you thing rich teams poaching Arsenal players is not true? Do you know these names who left Arsenal because of better payment anywhere and even often sitting on the bench there?
A.Cole, Toure, Gallas, Adebayor, Nasri, Fabregas
These all were poached or demnded payment that was ridicolous so they left to the teams that support ridicolous wages (Man city, Barca,Chelsea).
They all were poached by Arsenal and went because it's a bigger club that paid higher wages.
If it wasn't for that, Arsenal's current team would consistn of rejects like the Hoyte brothers or Jerome Thomas, plus players released by other clubs like Benayoun or Miquel.
Money buys players. It's the whole reason the transfer system exists. For a guy like Wenger who built his teams by poaching players from other clubs, that's a ridiculously hypocritical thing to complain about
Selective indignation isn't very pretty.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
For example isso stated this: 1. He fields younger teams. He doesn't. His teams' average age is higher than the league average. He gets that reputation from playing the players in meaningless league cup games
And it is not true, or it maybe was someday, but last season they had 4th lowest average age with starting lineup. So isso is maybe talking about years around 2000 but he does not say it smartly enough, so it looks like it fits now also...
And the rest of the information is similar arguable but i dont have all day to disscuss it.
Actually, you're the one choosing what fits. You just chose this last season because it happens to fit your view
I didn't manipulate anyone by posting about "years around 2000". I wasn't selective at all, I was as fair as I could be: I posted the average age of ALL Wenger's Arsenal Premier League starting elevens since 1996 to whatever date the book was published.
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Thierry Henry: profit 5.6 mil. pounds and best Arsenal player ever.
Accounting for inflation, 3.3M profit. Excellent signing of course, but that's not really what's being debated
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Samir Nasri: 6.2 mil. pounds profit during three years.
Gael Clichy: 6.75 mil. pounds profit, bought for 250k.
Correct
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Patrick Vieira: 10.2 mil. pounds profit and rock solid midfielder who brought success bought just for 3.5mil.
£3.5M that accounted for inflation were actually £10.8M. The profit with inflation was higher than you state too, £13M
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Adebayor: 18 mil. pounds profit in three years
.
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Marc Overmars: 18 mil. pounds profit in three years.
yes, indeed
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Nicolas Anelka: 22.5 mil. pounds profit in just 2!! years in the club. Bought for 500k.
Nearly double that profit in fact, accounting for inflation
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Fabregas: 32.75 mil. pounds profit to silly Barcelona who did not see his potential and sold him to Arsenal for 3 mil. to bring him later for ten times as much.
Wrong. Barcelona did not sell him. He repeatedly refused contracts from Barcelona because Arsenal convinced him to, so his contract could expire and he could join Arsenal. Arsenal had to pay compensation. In other words, the player poaching that Wenger says is so wrong
Profit with inflation: £25.5M
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Sure there should be some inflation considered, but i woul like to see manager who make similar profits from the players. I think you numbers concerning his overall loss are bad, because he made around 130mil. pounds profit just on these 9 players...
£168 Million on 9 players. Or I could start naming Udinese or Sevilla's sales, which are also much higher than Wenger's.
More importantly, you defend him for complaining that other clubs buy his players on account of having tons of money, but then you offer as proof that he's a great manager the fact that other clubs buy his players for tons of money?
You can't have it both ways at once dude!
Crommy wrote:
Edu: £6,000,000 loss in 4 seasons
Francis Jeffers: £5,400,000 loss in 4 seasons
Sylvain Wiltord: £13,000,000 loss in 4 seasons
Giovanni Van Bronckhorst: £5,500,000 loss in 2 seasons
Richard Wright: £2,500,000 loss in 1 season
Look, I can cherry-pick data too!
You have to consider the data as a whole to draw the meaningful conclusions issoisso does. You also must account for inflation, it's not negligible, especially in football (which, and I'm not 100% on this), has probably seen rises in wages/transfer costs at a much faster rate than inflation.
Accounting for inflation, those players resulted in a loss of £111,102,262....in just 5 players! And that's not even counting the £11M loss on Lauren, the £11M loss on Kanu, the £11M loss on Pires.....etc
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
I will not bite you, i have admitted isso may be right with that figure of loose money (see my first responce post to his article). Such a big club as Arsenal cannot be run with + in transfers
Which is why your Barcelona comparison is invalid
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
, Wenger is so good because the loss i not so big.
....Since he stopped winning. While he was winning things the loss was huge.
He's definitely a great manager, but you can't argue he's good because he only makes a small transfer market loss and doesn't win anything at a big club
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
But no need to discuss it further, i think everyone got what i wanted to say, now i will be stormed by isso's sarcasms and we will be all happy.
Just for you I went back and removed any sarcasm
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Edit: Btw do you know article u posted uses same source as isso have, the book Pay as you play? The numbers are very strange, they rated Nasri bought and sold for same value, that is nonsense or i got it wrong.
The book was written before Nasri was sold. The Nasri value listed there is what he was officially valued at in Arsenal's accounts at the time. The guy who wrote that blog took figures from the book but didn't understand them 100%.
EDIT: The actual profit on Nasri is around £15M (Bought for 12.8 that accounting for inflation which was negative between then and now would correspond to 10M now, and sold for 25, so profit was 25-10=15)
Oh and Crommy, the inflation mentioned is in every case the inflation of the average transfer fee, not the inflation of currency
Edited by issoisso on 26-06-2012 19:17
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
FreitasPCM wrote:
Tottenham confirms Villas Boas as their coach for this season.
Good news for the Gunners, he sucks
But if he will have less pressure and time to build it could be interesting for Tottenham.Biggest question now is what will happen with Modric.
FreitasPCM wrote:
Tottenham confirms Villas Boas as their coach for this season.
Good news for the Gunners, he sucks
But if he will have less pressure and time to build it could be interesting for Tottenham.Biggest question now is what will happen with Modric.
Villas-Boas is targeting Oscar (Internacional Porto Alegre), Moutinho and Defour for this season. Doubt Modric will stay, and even though I like the Spurs, he should give a bigger step this season.
Robin van Persie has announced he won't renew his contract with Arsenal, which experies at the end of the upcoming season. So he'll most likely leave this summer, and is rumored to City (where else? ).
He'll probably go to Juve (I hope). We should sell him now to get atleast something. Can't help but feel he's an ass, we supported him throughout all his injuries and after the first injury free season he leaves. Now we have to hope that Giroud can do it.
kumazan wrote:
Robin van Persie has announced he won't renew his contract with Arsenal, which experies at the end of the upcoming season. So he'll most likely leave this summer, and is rumored to City (where else? ).
No surprise. This was expected to happen for weeks.
More importantly Everton today signed Steven Naismith. Danijel Pranjic, Hugo Rodallega, Steven Pienaar and Landon Donovan are all really likely sooner or later coming as well..
Apparently he didn't even inform Arsenal. They found out the same way we did. He doesn't even know what respect is. Wow City, Juve or others can have the cunt.
litllemagnum wrote:
Apparently he didn't even inform Arsenal. They found out the same way we did. He doesn't even know what respect is. Wow City, Juve or others can have the cunt.
There's not only one source saying this: "Van Persie confirmed that after a meeting with club chief executive Ivan Gazidis and manager Arsene Wenger it became clear that they disagreed on the way Arsenal should move forward. "
Don't see any problem here.. he's been with Arsenal for 8 (?) years now. City would be indeed a bad move, but if he leaves Premier Leauge, where's the problem?
litllemagnum wrote:
Apparently he didn't even inform Arsenal. They found out the same way we did. He doesn't even know what respect is. Wow City, Juve or others can have the cunt.
There's not only one source saying this: "Van Persie confirmed that after a meeting with club chief executive Ivan Gazidis and manager Arsene Wenger it became clear that they disagreed on the way Arsenal should move forward. "
Don't see any problem here.. he's been with Arsenal for 8 (?) years now. City would be indeed a bad move, but if he leaves Premier Leauge, where's the problem?
He is a very good player and did his best for us and I will respect him for that but that doesn't mean you shouldn't inform the club first that you're going to make a public statement that you're leaving. There isn't a problem IF he leaves Premier League but I'm not so sure of that.
where is it stated that he didn't inform the club? He made the decision after talks with both the owner and the manager and says in the same article that he will go again talk with the owner as soon as he is back from holiday in 2 weeks..
It's a sad thing, as i find Arsenal a nice club, for many years now.. Used to be a huge fan of Bergkamp and i like the way Arsenal plays, but they haven't won anything the past few years, only sold their better players and got nothing in return.. Must have been frustrating.. It was luckely for Arsenal that he had no injuries this year otherwise they wouldn't even made top half of the competition.. so it's not that weird imo that he wants change and otherwise leaves
