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PCM.daily DB Stats discussion
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 26-05-2014 22:43
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Sprinter
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baseballlover312 wrote:
Shonak wrote:
I think Sagan's Hill stat should be reduced to 74/75 or something like that. 78 is just too much for a guy who doesn't even show up at Ardennes anymore, but ends up winning them in PCM. I have reduced them in the DBs I use and his results are in my opinion more realistic since then.
I agree with this completely. In my games he frequently places in top 5 of Ardennes and attacks and wins very very hilly stages. I'd reduce it to at least 76.
I reduced Sagan's hill stat to 75 some time ago, as I was fed up with him finishing highly with other top hill stat riders. 75 makes him still great rider for moderate climbs. |
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| ikaros33 |
Posted on 27-05-2014 04:10
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Free Agent
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Anderis wrote:
I also agree. I've had some medium-mountain stages in GTs that were marked as hilly, in which Sagan was the only guy mixing up with the biggest GC contenders. That's not realistic at all.
How is this not realistic if you look at last years stage 6 of Tirreno Adriatico, Stage 3 of the Tour de Suisse (although this is more mountainous than hilly) or this years stage 4 of the Tour of Oman?
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 07:39
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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He sure can hold up with the best guys on a very good day, but for example, when Sagan rides the Vuelta, he is riding like a GC contender.
In case you see these stages as a reason for 78 HL: I think these results are also possible with a hill stat of 75. It doesn't need 78 for that, especially since none of those stages finish uphill.
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 07:41
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:00
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Anderis wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Shonak wrote:
I think Sagan's Hill stat should be reduced to 74/75 or something like that. 78 is just too much for a guy who doesn't even show up at Ardennes anymore, but ends up winning them in PCM. I have reduced them in the DBs I use and his results are in my opinion more realistic since then.
I agree with this completely. In my games he frequently places in top 5 of Ardennes and attacks and wins very very hilly stages. I'd reduce it to at least 76.
I also agree. I've had some medium-mountain stages in GTs that were marked as hilly, in which Sagan was the only guy mixing up with the biggest GC contenders. That's not realistic at all.
Just wait for Tour and you will see who will be mixing it there on hilly stages with GC favourites. 
Sagan to 74/75 hill? You are crazy boys. 
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:06
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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So, any reason why we are crazy...? With 78, possible 79, he is in contention for L-B-L and Il Lombardia and due to his great other stats he ends up winning them on a regular basis. This is something that is not the case IRL and is unlikely to happen, since Sagan doesn't seem to target these races. He even gets dropped by riders such as Cancellara or Vanmarcke on the hills of the flanders classics, so... excatly why should he have 78, because of a 3rd at Amstel few years ago? Why is it okay for other riders to get reduced stats when they change but not Sagan? 75 is still a great value and is enough for his hilly stage racing wins. It's just not enough for him to compete in the Ardennes classics or in the Vuelta.
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 08:10
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:22
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Ehm, remind me who pawned Valverde,Kreuziger and Cunego at Strade Bianchi this year, when Valverde was in top form?
Or who has beaten Nibali, Purito and others last year at Tirreno hilly stage or Gilbert at Brabantse Pilj. Or Rui Costa + Kreuziger at Suisse, his long range attacks in hilly stages at Tour or 6th place at Worlds without teammates for last 50kms?
Sagan has his goals in late March + cobbled classics, it would be insane to want him see deliver also in Ardennes after that hard early season. If he targeted only Ardennes, he would be constant top5 rider for Amstel/Fleche. LBL should be about mountain stat too...
You can pretend there is world where Sagan is average 75 hill rider, but anything under 77looks like unreal to me.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 27-05-2014 08:23
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:41
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
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PCM$: 350.00
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Why Average 75 Hill rider? I'm saying his hill stat should be 75, he's average should be still god awful high.
It's not only about his quality though, it's also about race planning. When he has too high hill stat, he ends up seriously targeting races like the Ardennes, Lombardia or even the Vuelta (and thus skips the Tour for it for example). In my pretended PCM world I live rather great with Sagan at 75, max'ed 76. If Sagan ends up targeting the Ardennes and performs there, then yes, he can have 78-79 or even higher, but right now: I don't see the reasoning behind it. "If he targeted only Ardennes, he would be constant top5 rider for Amstel/Fleche", it's just that... IF! If he targeted the Ardennes, but he doesn't target them.
Valverde went faster up the finale climb than Kwiatkowski in Strade Bianche, I understand something entirely different under "pawned". That is to say, maybe you mean Kwiatkowski when you talk about owning. Tirreno and Tour de Suisse have been sprints in the end. He would have beaten those guys with 75 too, just as he would have followed their attacks. He was crazy strong in Brabantse Pijl. Something like +5 strong, but he still just won slightly to a sub-par Gilbert Version of 2013, who has won one stage in 2013. World Championships 6th? So, he won a sprint against guys like Clarke, Cancellara and Geschke amongst others.
In any case, I fail to see how a few results should grant a sprinter/northern specialist such a high hill stat, especially when you add the numerous, many many occassions where he couldn't hang on to superior puncheurs, climbers or Cancellara.
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 09:38
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 18:36
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 08:54
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World Champion
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Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really 
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| jph27 |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:03
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Team Leader
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really
Put it this way, make him 76HIL and 79/80SP and you have the equivalent of Man-Game Van Stayen. And we know how good he is in hilly classics with those stats |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:05
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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jph27 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really
Put it this way, make him 76HIL and 79/80SP and you have the equivalent of Man-Game Van Stayen. And we know how good he is in hilly classics with those stats
You mean in PCT where he meet max 80-81 hill opposition and usually rather under 80 guys?
Argument invalid.
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| Shonak |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:06
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Few results, okay. No sense to discuss it further really
Yes, you have listed a few results. To be precise: You have mentioned 6 races, nothing else... sigh
But to be even more clear: " I fail to see how a few results should grant a sprinter/northern specialist such a high hill stat". With this, I mean that he has very few results that are able to maybe back up the given 78 hill stat. Those results actually shouldn't grant him 78 though. He has outstanding results in terms of sprinting and cobblez and even attacking riding. But not at aall when it comes to hilly riding, and except for the 3rd place at Amstel two years prior, he can achieve any of those results with 75 HL (and probably he can even get 3rd at Amstel too).
EDIT: Highest Hill value is 81 too in the DB...
Edited by Shonak on 27-05-2014 09:34
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 27-05-2014 09:40
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World Champion
Posts: 14501
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I think that Sagan could've gotten a very high hill stat, but he chose to focus on the cobbles. Allrounders no longer exist in cycling you have to make choices. I have no doubt Sagan could be a top puncheur if he focuses on it, but he didn't. Just like Gilbert could've been a great cobbler, but chose the Ardennes instead.
I think that with great acceleration, flat, endurance, a very good sprint, a 76-77ish hill stat should be enough for him.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| kyle |
Posted on 27-05-2014 13:17
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 311
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MartijnVDD wrote:
I'm having difficulties deciding Thurau's stats. Any help?
I belive he deserves a significant change on his stats as well.. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 27-05-2014 14:14
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
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Sagan ends up targeting Ardennes, Vuelta and Lombardia way too often in my careers, resulting in not even racing the cobbled races. Yes, the last 5 RVV's I raced were without him.
On the other hand, 3 of the last 5 Vuelta's saw him in the Top 10 of the GC.
Realistic? No. Rather have him slightly worse in the hilly Tour stages than have a fucked up race planning.
kyle wrote:
[quote]MartijnVDD wrote:
I'm having difficulties deciding Thurau's stats. Any help?
It's really not easy indeed. Very allround-ish, probably around 72-73 for all of FL, MO, HIL and COB.
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| kyle |
Posted on 27-05-2014 16:46
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 311
Joined: 15-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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I just changed the MO and HIL stats.. 73 and 71 respectively |
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 27-05-2014 20:05
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 801
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That's a lot though. He's been a good domestique and strong attacker, but he didn't get the results to deserve a change to 73, imo. |
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| gotlandrules |
Posted on 27-05-2014 20:13
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1358
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When we're on the case of Hill stats, i think many of the GC-guys are overrated in HI, many of the good climbers are worse on the shorter hilly stuff.
On another note, how to deal with Duarte? there is no consistency-stat in the game (right?)  On a good day he is 80 MO, on a bad day he's like 60
And Sagan really needs to be lowered in HI, he will be able to get realistic results with 75-76 HI and hopefully his schedule gets more realistic aswell.
Edited by gotlandrules on 27-05-2014 20:15
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| Martial1 |
Posted on 28-05-2014 02:15
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 388
Joined: 30-04-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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gotlandrules wrote: On another note, how to deal with Duarte? there is no consistency-stat in the game (right?) On a good day he is 80 MO, on a bad day he's like 60
Give him a low recovery stat, that should do it |
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| gotlandrules |
Posted on 28-05-2014 02:28
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1358
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Martial1 wrote:
gotlandrules wrote: On another note, how to deal with Duarte? there is no consistency-stat in the game (right?) On a good day he is 80 MO, on a bad day he's like 60
Give him a low recovery stat, that should do it
He seems to have good recovery though so thats wrong, might be the best way to mimic something thats not in the game. But his recovery isnt bad IRL |
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 28-05-2014 08:08
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 801
Joined: 26-06-2012
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Consistency would be a nice addition to the game. It should influence daily form, I think. |
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