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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| ruben |
Posted on 25-07-2012 16:33
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So...
I tried the Sky tactic in PCM 2011
Saxo Bank 4th season. Whole team on climbing camp for 20 days in may, and 10 days time trial camp in june.
After dominating the Dauphine the Cyanide newspaper headline was
"Strange domination of Saxo Bank"
I see paralells  |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 25-07-2012 20:41
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CrueTrue wrote:
In terms of the watts discussion, I never understood the theory behind it, but we've moved from "that can't be done by a human being" in the Armstrong era till a point where it's actually humanly possible.
That's humanly possible if you consider Froome and Wiggins as the ultimate human beings. Which, admittedly, they're unlikely to both be.
Anyway, besides the scientific aspect, there's one that should make more sense about Watts. The statistical aspect.
The more above that supposed human limits riders have been, the more likely they are to have been convinced or seriously suspected of doping.
Best performers in history : Armstrong, Contador, Riis, Ullrich, Basso (before his suspension), Pantani, etc.
Other top performers : Beloki, Botero, Hamilton, Klöden, Mayo, Menchov, Landis, Heras, Rumsas, Sevilla, Simoni, Vinokourov, etc.
I don't have all the names with me, but I can't name a rider that I consider clean who has performed at that level. I don't mean once on a short hill, I mean in the standard conditions when that limit applies.
So, seeing Froome and Wiggins joining that "club" of super-performing riders is not a proof, it just increases some probabilities. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 25-07-2012 20:47
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Hmm, but Vaughters said Wiggins is the best rider they ever tested at Garmin.
He is clearly an unique physical talent.
Contador is also a test monster.
Besides, limits are there to be broken. There is no limit to human possibilties. Humans keep evolving, and at a fast rate as well. (just look at average length of a male in Holland between 100 years ago and now or even 20 years ago and now). Everyone keeps pushing boundaries
Sporters are the frontiers of men and woman that surpass previous limits
Edited by ruben on 25-07-2012 20:48
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| Wilier |
Posted on 25-07-2012 21:02
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Then what a coincedence that Sky's riders are all evolving so rapidly. We might wanna watch out they don't get mutant powers, next season. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 25-07-2012 21:06
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Spider Froome....Spider Froome...does whatever a Spider Froome does.....can he swing....from a web? No he can't....he's a Froome.....heeeeere's spider Froome....
ruben wrote:just look at average length of a male in Holland
I'd rather not, thanks
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| I_Mayo |
Posted on 25-07-2012 21:06
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I don't have all the names with me, but I can't name a rider that I consider clean who has performed at that level.
Aquarius, you mentioned Simoni as one of top performers. Besides that time when he got caught for cocaine (don't know how it improves your cycling performances?) I haven't heard anything about him in terms of doping topic. But to be honest I was only a casual cycling fan at the start of previous decade so I might not know all the details.
Edited by I_Mayo on 25-07-2012 21:08
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| ruben |
Posted on 25-07-2012 21:14
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Actually, gen doping might already be possible Willier...
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| kumazan |
Posted on 25-07-2012 21:15
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Ah, Simoni. This is what professionalism and better training did back in those days:
Edited by kumazan on 25-07-2012 21:15
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| Ad Bot |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:09
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ruben wrote:
Hmm, but Vaughters said Wiggins is the best rider they ever tested at Garmin.
He is clearly an unique physical talent.
Contador is also a test monster.
Besides, limits are there to be broken. There is no limit to human possibilties. Humans keep evolving, and at a fast rate as well. (just look at average length of a male in Holland between 100 years ago and now or even 20 years ago and now). Everyone keeps pushing boundaries
Sporters are the frontiers of men and woman that surpass previous limits
Vande Velde was also supposed to be even stronger than Armstrong, yet it seems the both doped.
i'm not denying Wiggo or Frommechkin talent, by the way, all pros, especially the strong ones, are way above average human beings.
And, of course, human beings evolve (hey wait, there might be creationists around ), but gaining 15 % performance in 20 years ? No way (clean). And, of course, training methods, and all the side aspects have also evolved, but that shouldn't push limits in such proportions, at least not without doping.
So, I'm still to be shown that those supposedly unbeatable limits can be attained by clean riders. So far, almost only some who sooner or later got involved in doping cases or whose doping is now evident (Indurain, etc.) have done it.
About Simoni : the team he's ridden for, and the number of his team mates who were caught for doping says a lot. Then he performed outstandingly. During the Giro 2007, he was among the 6 or 7 guys with the hormones level of a child (either he used diuretics - Fränk Schleck says hello), either he was tweaking his blood or urine, which in both cases is extremely suspect. Especially when the other guys in that case were Ricco, Piepoli, Di Luca, etc.
And to top it all, he was also mentioned for abnormal blood values.
He doesn't really match the image of a clean cyclist, IMHO. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:20
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But then surely, almost every other sport must be doped too?
because in athletics records keep getting broken. Swimming too....
Footballers run longer and faster (especially spain) then 10 years ago and keep some sort of fitness. |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:34
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ruben wrote:
But then surely, almost every other sport must be doped too?
because in athletics records keep getting broken. Swimming too....
Footballers run longer and faster (especially spain) then 10 years ago and keep some sort of fitness.
Yes, and?
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| ruben |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:35
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mb2612 wrote:
ruben wrote:
But then surely, almost every other sport must be doped too?
because in athletics records keep getting broken. Swimming too....
Footballers run longer and faster (especially spain) then 10 years ago and keep some sort of fitness.
Yes, and?
and...you never hear the media about that. Which annoys me |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:45
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Well, actually, I can't think of a sport with a lot of media and money, and with a physical dimension, that is not infected by doping. It's probably not a problem in some minor sports, but I guess all pro sports or sports with many amateurs practising are concerned.
I could say very dirty things about sport in Spain, but I could get sued for that. According to some people who've trained their youth (football) teams, let's just say that it's a national plan to shine at the international level, through sport, and that some non healthy things are done already in youngsters national teams. Since 1992 it was mostly the adults, then it became the teens too since the late 90's/early 2000's. When one falls there are a dozen of others to replace him. Their total dominance for 5 years or so in team sports and some individual is not only based on tactics... Maybe some more dead athletes will make them go reasonable again ? Plus remember what Fuentes said that would happen to the whole Spanish sport if he talked out loud.
Sorry for being offensive, but that's really how I feel about it.
Swimming is another case of a federation protecting its sportsmen and women. Small suspension, search of inefficient products, etc. To be caught when you're a swimmer is the sign of total stupidity. And even when caught, just come up with a random excuse and you'll get away with it (Frenchman F. Bousquet got his suspension delayed until after his season objectives, after he suddenly remembered he took a medicine for hemoroids - the federation bought it. In every case he should have given the certificate before being controlled, not after his positive test was announced. Like Armstrong 1999).
One of my mates is (fin-)swimming at top level and only depicts things worst than I thought. Just for the fun of it : depending from which club the French swimmer are licensed in, they all become or stop being asthmatics. 
Football ? Check how Fifa and Wada go along together, and what UEFA/Fifa directors, etc. think about doping in football. They're in total denial mode, which means that staff people can do almost whatever it takes to improve their players' performance.
Also, there are very little controls per rider per match, compared to the level or controls per cyclist per race. I'm not sure of the proportions.
Only athletics does a job comparable to cycling when it comes to cleaning their sport. I'm not sure about Jamaican sprinters nowadays. Endurance runners in eastern-Africa are almost never controlled during preparations though.
And records like former eastern-Germany athletes, or Michael Johnson's or Marion Jones' are not likely to be beaten any time soon, IMO.
I know that what I'm depicting is not exactly bright, but I'm afraid it's not that far from the truth.  |
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| felix_29 |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:53
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Wasn´t it mentioned somewhere here that Luis Garcia del Moral worked (or still works) for Barca. For those who don´t know, he was the doc of US Postal from ´99 to ´03.
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| kumazan |
Posted on 25-07-2012 22:57
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Wait, are you saying there's state doping going on in Spain? Nah, there's more permissivity about doping than in many european countries, but that's about it. The myth about the Spanish sport machine is destroyed by something as easy as to have a look at the medal tables of any Olympic Games.
Spain catched up with the "best" in 1992, nothing else.
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| I_Mayo |
Posted on 25-07-2012 23:13
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The funny thing about football is that it is not Spain who runs it's their opponent. That's way tiki-taka is so effective. Ball will always be faster then player and that's way the team without the ball will be tired faster which leads to decreasement in level of concentration and mistakes in marking players.
Edited by I_Mayo on 25-07-2012 23:13
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-07-2012 23:13
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kumazan wrote:
The myth about the Spanish sport machine is destroyed by something as easy as to have a look at the medal tables of any Olympic Games.
Spain catched up with the "best" in 1992, nothing else.
everyone could just be doping better than spain are doping
As this is starting to veer off topic (a bit) i'm gonna try and drag it back (not too hopeful).
Firstly, Does Gert Lienders work exclusivly for Sky? (i dont actually know)
What about the Sky riders who havnt massivly improved this year, or declined (e.g. Pate, Hayman, Sutton), or is it just the TDF team?
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| kumazan |
Posted on 25-07-2012 23:28
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TheManxMissile wrote:
everyone could just be doping better than spain are doping
I have no doubt that there's a lot of doping going on in Spain, and in many other countries. Just not state sponsored doping. The wall fell 23 years ago, now this has been privatized.
TheManxMissile wrote:
Firstly, Does Gert Lienders work exclusivly for Sky? (i dont actually know)
Yes, as far as I know. He could have worked for others as well, as he's only been part time with Sky, but that's wild speculation.
TheManxMissile wrote:
What about the Sky riders who havnt massivly improved this year, or declined (e.g. Pate, Hayman, Sutton), or is it just the TDF team?
There's a misconception about team's doping programs. They're not team-wide, not even at USPS. Either you are part of the trusted circle (which in Sky's case we could think it to be formed by the core TdF team, the fantastic four: Porte, Rogers, Froome, Wiggins), or you have to do it yourself (or not do it at all). Bassons was clean at Festina and Moncoutié at Cofidis, after all.
Also you better don't say Pate is declining!
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-07-2012 23:30
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kumazan wrote:
Also you better don't say Pate is declining!
i would never say he is declining
but i would say he has declined
thanks for the Lienders clarification
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| Gulvplanke |
Posted on 26-07-2012 00:38
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kumazan wrote:
Also you better don't say Pate is declining!
He's not decling, he's conserving energy for the vuelta... not that he needs to; he would win anyway, but you know, just in case 
How hard can it be?
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