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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:05
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World Champion
Posts: 14501
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 8500.00
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Well, for the first time I don't know how to rate people after the cobbled season. Without the big 2 Cancellara and Boonen, no one could really dominate. All races were decided off the cobbles.
I saw two big moments by Vanmarcke in Omloop and Roubaix, but he also punctured twice when attacking, so there was no followup. Van Avermaet's attack on the last Paterberg was also impressive, but of course it was behind the leaders. Each classic was decided after the classics. Stannard destroyed OPQS on the flat in Omloop. Thomas dropped Sagan and Stybar on normal roads in E3. Paolini actually got dropped on the last section, only to return on the flat and attck on the flat in Wevelgem. Kristoff and Terpstra also attacked off the cobbles in Ronde and Degenkolb rode to the leaders after the hard sections in Roubaix.
How that translates in stats, I would say Cancellara still is the best, followed by Boonen. Degenkolb, Kristoff, Thomas and Paolini won big races, but I do feel that guys like Vanmarcke, Van Avermaet, Stybar, Boom and maybe even Vandenbergh actually take the cobbles better. I think we can have all those guys close together in the 78-80 range, along with guys like Terpstra and other guys that had solid results.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:18
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Alak and I found it very difficult this year indeed.
Leaving Boonen on 81 is very arguable if you ask me.
I realise how unlucky he is with his injuries every year, but we can't leave him on top every year until he's finally a whole year injury free.
Even when not injured, he never really showed to be at the top.
He won Kuurne last year, but that's pretty much it.
I think this comes down to personal preference a bit, on how you like to have the stats, but I have him on 80 right now.
Also something else major I see in your stat suggestions:
You seem to forget that in cobbled races, COB also counts on flat roads. So even if someone is mainly stronger on the flat in Roubaix, his COB should be partly compensated for that.
Edited by Jesleyh on 12-04-2015 18:20
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:27
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World Champion
Posts: 14501
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 8500.00
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Boonen can be up to personal interpretation I guess. I don't think he'll find his 2012 form again, but I don't see him overtaken either. He'll has to show us next year 
And what I meant with the cobble stat is not to give the edge to guys with the cobble stat, but with the secondary stats. Let's take Kristoff vs Stybar or something. Kristoff has better results obviously, but I would keep the cobble stat equal and give the edge to Kristoff by higher FL and STA.
In general I'd say a lot of people should be really close together. Like Degenkolb won "the" cobbled classic, but his results in the other races weren't that impressive.
Edited by Ollfardh on 12-04-2015 18:30
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:29
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Wiggins 82CB of course. Thomas 85CB, 85FL and 85HL clearly. Stannard 80CB and 80FL is a given. Rowe 79CB and 79FL is obvious. Sky were just amazing on the cobbles, best team ahead of Etixx by a mile 
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:34
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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TMM, 1 April is over 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:36
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
TMM, 1 April is over
I thought if i fanboyed hard now then no-one else will do it, and we can have a genuine stats discussion rather than the usual back and forth over personal preferences 
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:49
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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I think Boonen with 80 COB is alright and Cancellara should be the best still. But I don't really know how to handle the others. If Vanmarcke would be much stronger than the others on the cobbles, why didn't he drop them on the cobbles?
Terpstra on 80 would be ok
Stybar on 81, imo.
I think he is stronger than Terpstra and Boonen.
Vandenbergh 78
Thomas 79
Wiggins 77
Degenkolb 78 or 79
GVA 80
Sagan 78 or 79
Benoot 76 or 75
Lampaert 74 or 75
Stannard 77
Cance 82
Vanmarcke 80 or 81
Thats what I think atm, although I'm not sure about most of them.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:50
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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PCM$: 300.00
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Luke Rowe certainly deserve a stats upgrade because there's no way you can enter top 10 in roubaix with only 72 cobbles |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 14:31
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:52
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Luke Rowe certainly deserve a stats upgrade because there's no way you can enter top 10 in roubaix with only 72 cobbles
Maybe 75 for him then?
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:53
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
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Paul23 wrote:
I think Boonen with 80 COB is alright and Cancellara should be the best still. But I don't really know how to handle the others. If Vanmarcke would be much stronger than the others on the cobbles, why didn't he drop them on the cobbles?
Terpstra on 80 would be ok
Stybar on 81, imo.
I think he is stronger than Terpstra and Boonen.
Vandenbergh 78
Thomas 79
Wiggins 77
Degenkolb 78 or 79
GVA 80
Sagan 78 or 79
Benoot 76 or 75
Lampaert 74 or 75
Stannard 77
Cance 82
Vanmarcke 80 or 81
Thats what I think atm, although I'm not sure about most of them.
No way stybar can be 81 in cobbles and be better than John degenkolb you gotta be kidding me. He only got one big result. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:55
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
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Stybar always looked stronger than his teammates for sure, but he had to play the anchor, which held him back in my opinion. And Dege decided the win with the sprint. Also Dege only got 1 good result, too...
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 12-04-2015 18:57
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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I wouldn't say Stybar should be better than Degenkolb.
But Stybar certainly is one of the standouts this cobbles season. Very strong today, and also was very strong in RvV(remember he was the only one that could comfortably follow Thomas' attack there).
In RvV it was just a bad idea to chase and get for a better result, obviously because Terpstra was up the road
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:00
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Stybar always looked stronger than his teammates for sure, but he had to play the anchor, which held him back in my opinion. And Dege decided the win with the sprint. Also Dege only got 1 good result, too...
I don't think so because if you remembered degenkolb finished 2nd last year which shows that he's with the big ones and he shows some progression and since he's got good sprint he can make the difference. Stybar only capitalized on his chance and his sprint isn't bad so he finished 2nd. That's his first big result no way he can deserve 81 |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:01
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
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Stybar always worked for his team, so I'm not quite sure, what he is capable of. I think that he was able to maybe win RvV. P-R was a different story. I think he atleast needs 80 COB, if you put Terpstra on 80. And Degenkolb mainly profited from others not attacking on the hard cobble sections.
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:03
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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Can you listen us actually and properly without giving a link?
Well 62 hill is worse than Kittel which is definitely wrong.And the results also show that he deserves more than 62 Hill and also some of the stages/races rated hilly are much more harder than hilly,rather mountainous to be precise |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:03
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
Stybar always looked stronger than his teammates for sure, but he had to play the anchor, which held him back in my opinion. And Dege decided the win with the sprint. Also Dege only got 1 good result, too...
I don't think so because if you remembered degenkolb finished 2nd last year which shows that he's with the big ones and he shows some progression and since he's got good sprint he can make the difference. Stybar only capitalized on his chance and his sprint isn't bad so he finished 2nd. That's his first big result no way he can deserve 81
He also crashed out in 2013, where he looked very strong. You cant put in results from last year. Last year Dege only finished 2nd, because the leading group slowed down.
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:08
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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The Schleck Fan wrote:
Can you listen us actually and properly without giving a link?
Well 62 hill is worse than Kittel which is definitely wrong.And the results also show that he deserves more than 62 Hill and also some of the stages/races rated hilly are much more harder than hilly,rather mountainous to be precise
Those are computerized stats. Nobody argues that 62HI is enough, obviously it isn't. It's just a flaw in the computer stats, which TankNL explained in the link.
That's why Matt posted the link and that is why there's no need to argue about the 62HI.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:09
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Stybar always worked for his team, so I'm not quite sure, what he is capable of. I think that he was able to maybe win RvV. P-R was a different story. I think he atleast needs 80 COB, if you put Terpstra on 80. And Degenkolb mainly profited from others not attacking on the hard cobble sections.
You just contradicted yourself because you would give 81 in cobbles for stybar but you're not quite sure of what he's capable of. It's like saying giving 79 to Luke Rowe because he would be able to win P-R. John degenkolb was the smartest today and relied on sprint so I can't blame him because guys like kristoff or Tom Boonen would have done the same thing if they were in the same position. Cycling is about using your strength to your advantages. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:10
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Last year Dege only finished 2nd, because the leading group slowed down.
You mean last year, where this happened in Carrefour de l'Arbre?
And if Degenkolb couldn't have relied on his sprint today and would be more of a Terpstra kind of rider that has to force selections early, he would've smashed everyone on the cobbles.
Look how easily he followed any Terpstra or Vanmarcke acceleration, even though they obviously weren't all-in yet.
Edited by cio93 on 12-04-2015 19:12
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 12-04-2015 19:13
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
I wouldn't say Stybar should be better than Degenkolb.
But Stybar certainly is one of the standouts this cobbles season. Very strong today, and also was very strong in RvV(remember he was the only one that could comfortably follow Thomas' attack there).
In RvV it was just a bad idea to chase and get for a better result, obviously because Terpstra was up the road
It's going to be very hard to get the cobbled results correct this season and a lot will come down to personal preference more than ever. I think the things people need to consider when changing them are:
1. Boonen surely can't remain at quite the same level, he's hardly done anything through injury over the last couple of years.
2. No need to change Cancellara and should remain the best.
3. No need to change Terpstra as his performances match his stats.
3. Vanmarcke is clearly not as strong as believed and I think that really showed itself in Gent Wevelgem, Flanders and Roubaix.
4. Stybar is probably the most explosive of the Etixx riders and his cobble and hill stat could be boosted. I'd say GVA is exactly at the same level as well.
5. Thomas is difficult rode like the best cobbled man upto Gent-Wevelgem and then flopped in Flanders and didn't seem to have it at Roubaix.
6. Wiggins no more than 78 cobble and he really just uses his flat ability as he showed today.
7. Paolini just an opportunist who wins races every few years.
8. Vandenbergh a real tank and the only hope he ever had is to ride away alone.
9. Stannard a mystery looks like a Roubaix man but the length seems to sap him so maybe his cob stat should be high but stamina dropped.
10. I put Kristoff and Degenkolb together, clearly both have high flat and cobble but not too higher than the other favs as they always have their sprints to put them in pole position but both should have amongst the best stamina, as Kristoff is pretty famous for lasting 250-300km races and Degenkolb was so powerful today and still won the sprint after closing down the leading two.
11. Sagan like the above two but not as strong.
12. Roelandts is the perfecte xample of a 76 cobble rider.
Riders worthy of mention and stat improvements are: Lampaert, Oss, Benoot, Rowe, Elmiger, Debusschere.
I'm still thinking of overall stats for the riders, but basing it on some of what I've written above. |
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