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Le Tour 09: Stage 11 - Vatan - Saint Fargeau
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:24
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Charles Pelissier (1930), Eddy Merckx (1970, 1974) and Freddy Maertens (1976) have won 8 stages in a single tour.
I guess Cavendish could in theory take 7.
Edited by SportingNonsense on 15-07-2009 21:25
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| issoisso |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:25
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schleck93 wrote:
didn't Petacchi win 4 stages in 2004 (maybe 05)? From what I remember his train was beyond rivals in that tour, and Petacchi was faster than his rivals, just like Cavendish and columbia this year.
Yes, 04. That was the last year Petacchi was able to compete at the Tour.
He was at his peak that year, but it wasn't the train. It couldn't compare to this Columbia train which is indeed the best ever.
Petacchi that year won 9 Giro stages (no, that's not a typo), 4 Tour stages and 2 Vuelta stages.
Heck, this year he was faster than Cavendish at the Giro despite being well past it.
I may not like the man very much (too stuck up for my taste), but his speed was pretty insane.
However, his 9 wins at that Giro were the same case as Cavendish in the entire calendar right now: the competition was much lower level than is normal.
Edited by issoisso on 15-07-2009 21:29
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| stuartmcstuart |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:29
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issoisso wrote:
stuartmcstuart wrote:
issoisso wrote:
Cipollini was the last sprinter to win 4 stages (consecutive, no less. And he quit on stage 10 as they went into the mountains)
But all respect to Cavendish, Cipollini was going up against the best crop of sprinters a Tour's ever seen, by quite a margin.
While Cavendish is up against Hushovd and a bunch of injured (Freire, Bennati) or out of shape (Boonen) guys who aren't on the same level as Cipollini's rivals Svorada, Steels, Zabel, Kirsipuu, Minali, O'Grady (before he stopped training as a sprinter and lost his sprinting speed) and McEwen.
This is true, but you can only beat whats in front of you. Cav still deserves some kudos for his sprint domination.
"some"? He deserves an enormous amount. Just can't compare to Cipollini's achievement, that's all.
Also, cycling's never seen a train like Columbia's. When was the lsat time a train always left a sprinter up front? never, that's when. The best trains were those of Petacchi and Cipollini and they had about a 50% fail rate.
But that's to do with the current sprinters not having the guts of previous ones. We need a new generation quick, the current ones suck in terms of courage. That's why they lose.
No one tries to anticipate the sprint. it's stupid. I've never seen anything like it.
Intimidation tactics from Columbia are really working, in my opinion. It's not all talk, of course, but all that bravado really seems to have scared the other teams from interfering with Cavendish during the sprint. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 11:13
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| Roo |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:35
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issoisso wrote:
Yes, 04. That was the last year Petacchi was able to compete at the Tour.
He was at his peak that year, but it wasn't the train. It couldn't compare to this Columbia train which is indeed the best ever.
Petacchi that year won 9 Giro stages (no, that's not a typo), 4 Tour stages and 2 Vuelta stages.
Heck, this year he was faster than Cavendish at the Giro despite being well past it.
I may not like the man very much (too stuck up for my taste), but his speed was pretty insane.
However, his 9 wins at that Giro were the same case as Cavendish in the entire calendar right now: the competition was much lower level than is normal.
It was 2003 with the 4 tour stages for AleJet, with 9 Giro wins in 2004.
Felt difficult not correcting isso, surely you'll get your way with me at some point |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:40
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issoisso wrote:
Yes, 04. That was the last year Petacchi was able to compete at the Tour.
He was at his peak that year, but it wasn't the train. It couldn't compare to this Columbia train which is indeed the best ever.
Petacchi that year won 9 Giro stages (no, that's not a typo), 4 Tour stages and 2 Vuelta stages.
Heck, this year he was faster than Cavendish at the Giro despite being well past it.
I may not like the man very much (too stuck up for my taste), but his speed was pretty insane.
That 3 years old knee injury has changed the man. He told that he has to work with he's style..to get more pressure the other leg..etc. etc. That was career killer injury a. la. Pereiro at the moment..Beloki. But he survived..adapted. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:42
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Roo wrote:
It was 2003 with the 4 tour stages for AleJet, with 9 Giro wins in 2004.
Sacrebleu! but of course! 2004 was the year he got injured racing the Tour. The last time he was able to ride the Tour, too. |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 15-07-2009 21:52
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BenBarnes wrote:
No, I see where you're coming from, but even in the heat of competition there's ways to do it in a professional manner or not. Cav coming up with different celebrations each stage alone is a sign of a certain arrogance if you ask me. Armstrong in several interviews seems very gracious and claims he is just hoping for the best. Does anyone believe he's not arrogant?
I agree... but you have to remember he's a young guy. Just because he's not able to "turn off" his post race comments like he should, doesn't mean he's an out of control jackass like some seem to think.
Many of the interviews and comments made outside of the race day environment make him seem very nice, respectful and humble.
Cadel Evans does similar things... especially after races. In fact... he borders on insanity with his comments... and doesn't seem humble in non-race situations like Cav does.
But he gets nowhere near the crap Cav seems to catch... probably because he doesn't win as much. His crap all comes from wheel sucking (which is kind of unfair right now). |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:00
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The stuff with Cav's train... something doesn't feel right about it.
I mean... Cippo had incredible trains... I have a hard time putting the Columbia train ahead of Cippo's.
And I'm not completely convinced the rest of his competition isn't pretty darn good... how can we say that for certain instead of saying Cav is at another level?
It seems that people want to find a way to bring him down. Last year it was "He's never beaten the elite sprinters.". Then he won a couple of Giro stages and people said "Benatti is better, and he hasn't beaten anyone else". Then he won 4 tour stages and it was "No Pettachi, No Boonen, can't ride uphill, etc".
Now he's proven he's better then anyone else this year... and it's "His competition is no good, it's all due to his train, etc."
Guys... we're seeing the next Cippo here... let's just enjoy it rather then trying to say he's not already looking like one of the greatest sprinters ever. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:04
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KurtinSC wrote:
The stuff with Cav's train... something doesn't feel right about it.
I mean... Cippo had incredible trains... I have a hard time putting the Columbia train ahead of Cippo's.
Pick up some old DVDs. watch the finishes. You won't find a single instance where Cippo started even half the sprints at the front.
KurtinSC wrote:
Now he's proven he's better then anyone else this year... and it's "His competition is no good, it's all due to his train, etc."
Huh? Re-watch the Giro finishes where he and petacchi went head to head. There were three, Petacchi won two, and in all 3 plus the one where Davis knocked Petacchi out of the way, Petacchi was faster.
In more than one occasion Petacchi did a longer sprint and was still faster.
Guys... we're seeing the next Cippo here... let's just enjoy it rather then trying to say he's not already looking like one of the greatest sprinters ever.[/quote] |
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| Dan_Grr |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:17
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Boo Cavendish... Boooo.
Booo.
Bo. |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:20
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issoisso wrote:
Huh? Re-watch the Giro finishes where he and petacchi went head to head. There were three, Petacchi won two, and in all 3 plus the one where Davis knocked Petacchi out of the way, Petacchi was faster.
In more than one occasion Petacchi did a longer sprint and was still faster.
Guys... we're seeing the next Cippo here... let's just enjoy it rather then trying to say he's not already looking like one of the greatest sprinters ever. [/quote]
actually one of the stages petacchi won cav was about 5 mins behind after getting cought behind the peleton. that is if your talking about this years giro.
as for cav being the next cippo, i think he will surpass him. i saw a graph somewhere with the top sprinters of the last 10 or so years in some magazine that plotted all there wins through out there career. at 23 cav has one as many stages as the likes of cippo, pettachi and zabel had by the time they were 28/29. cav isn't at his prime yet. if he carries on at this rate he will easily be the greatest sprinter of all time. |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:23
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issoisso wrote:
[quote]KurtinSC wrote:
The stuff with Cav's train... something doesn't feel right about it.
I mean... Cippo had incredible trains... I have a hard time putting the Columbia train ahead of Cippo's.
Pick up some old DVDs. watch the finishes. You won't find a single instance where Cippo started even half the sprints at the front.
Columbia train is like impossible to manipulate and crack. Best example was today..they tryed with Milram train..tryed to but riders inside Columbia train. Nothing..that train change a rythm if needed..closed inside corners if needed to. And like clockwork last man moving away when they have 200-250 to go. Perfect ...day after day. |
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| pangare |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:27
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They prefer to wait for Cavendish and do 2nd, than to anticipate his sprint and do 3rd or 4th |
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| drugsdontwork |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:39
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issoisso wrote:
Huh? Re-watch the Giro finishes where he and petacchi went head to head. There were three, Petacchi won two, and in all 3 plus the one where Davis knocked Petacchi out of the way, Petacchi was faster.
sprinters ever.
I have issues with the Petacchi comparison here. To often we say that different riders are in different conditions at different times in the season. Pettachi was (likely) in top form for the Giro. As for Cavendish, who knows. I can't believe he was in the same condition as he is now.
Also ringo182 is right, Cavendish was caught up in the peleton in one of the two stages that Petacchi won (Stage 3 I think).
Anyway the history books will show that at the Giro 2009, Petacchi won 2 and Cavendish won 3. All our arguments will be lost in the dust of time.
Petacchi/ Cippo et al were great sprinters, currently Cavendish is the best. There will be better sprinters in the future but for now I'm enjoying the moment.
Nobody is normal
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| issoisso |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:52
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ringo182 wrote:
actually one of the stages petacchi won cav was about 5 mins behind after getting cought behind the peleton. that is if your talking about this years giro.
I said stages where they went head to head. That doesn't qualify. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 15-07-2009 22:54
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drugsdontwork wrote:
I have issues with the Petacchi comparison here. To often we say that different riders are in different conditions at different times in the season. Pettachi was (likely) in top form for the Giro. As for Cavendish, who knows. I can't believe he was in the same condition as he is now.
Condition doesn't affect your sprint. Riders in awful condition win sprints. Condition affect whether you're there at the end.
Also ringo182 is right, Cavendish was caught up in the peleton in one of the two stages that Petacchi won (Stage 3 I think).
drugsdontwork wrote:
Anyway the history books will show that at the Giro 2009, Petacchi won 2 and Cavendish won 3. All our arguments will be lost in the dust of time.
By that logic we should close off the cycling sub-forum and never discuss anything, since all arguments about everything will be "lost in the dust of time". |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 16-07-2009 06:46
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issoisso wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
actually one of the stages petacchi won cav was about 5 mins behind after getting cought behind the peleton. that is if your talking about this years giro.
I said stages where they went head to head. That doesn't qualify.
well petacchi only won 2 stages this year meaning he only beat cav once. and cav admitted he made a mistake and let petacchi get away from him. it didn't happen again as cav won 3. |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 16-07-2009 06:48
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opps, sorry isso, didn't read your last post before i posted my last one |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 16-07-2009 15:51
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Guido Mukk wrote:
issoisso wrote:
[quote]KurtinSC wrote:
The stuff with Cav's train... something doesn't feel right about it.
I mean... Cippo had incredible trains... I have a hard time putting the Columbia train ahead of Cippo's.
Pick up some old DVDs. watch the finishes. You won't find a single instance where Cippo started even half the sprints at the front.
Columbia train is like impossible to manipulate and crack. Best example was today..they tryed with Milram train..tryed to but riders inside Columbia train. Nothing..that train change a rythm if needed..closed inside corners if needed to. And like clockwork last man moving away when they have 200-250 to go. Perfect ...day after day.
Bet we didn't hear about any of this before the tour.
I have a magazine with interviews with Cippo where he stated that Cav would have a lot of trouble beating him with his train.
He went into a lot of detail... saying his train launched him at top speed, while Cav's train was slower so he still had to accelerate. His reasoning was that Cav's great asset was acceleration rather than top end speed, and with Cippo at top speed Cav would never be able to pass.
Now granted... This is Cippo talking about himself and we know he's not lacking in ego... but it seems like the thought before the tour was that Cav's train was not invincible.
Now it seems all I'm hearing about is the strength of his train. I'm just struggling with the negativity directed at this guy on this board in particular. Granted... in general we lean towards being negative on this board to whoever is doing well (look at how people talk about Lance and Contador now, Edvald in the Giro, Contador in the Giro and Vuelta last year, Evans in last year's tour, etc)... but still, I think with Cav it's time to say that he's just better then everyone else right now, train or no. |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 16-07-2009 16:03
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KurtinSC wrote:
Now it seems all I'm hearing about is the strength of his train. I'm just struggling with the negativity directed at this guy on this board in particular. Granted... in general we lean towards being negative on this board to whoever is doing well (look at how people talk about Lance and Contador now, Edvald in the Giro, Contador in the Giro and Vuelta last year, Evans in last year's tour, etc)... but still, I think with Cav it's time to say that he's just better then everyone else right now, train or no.
Armstrong anounched that he is coming back for have some fun. Alberto can be team leader in France. Then ego wake up. Now he is demanding some respect ..because he has won this tour 7 times.
For subjective conspiracy theory...he has done deal woth Bruyneel when come back started..to take another TdF win. Giro protrest march..press silence. Not a nice person at all.
Evans only fault year ago was complaining..that other teams wont help him to win the tour and he has to do all the work.
Yes Cav is best at the moment..and that superb train makes him even stronger.
Edvald and Contador should "thank" theyr fans ..who are most anoying group on this forum  |
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