DO you really believe that is a doper since is 19 and he was only caught last year??
If is saying the truth, this can be "the end" of cycling, because the cyclists can be doped and not be detected during almost 9 years doping and not be caught. This also opens the question: What are the realism of this sport?, or What is wrong with the anti doping tests and so one.
And yes, it's perfectly normal for riders to be doped their entire careers and not be caught ever.
It's the extremely obvious thing that retired riders keep saying.
But fans don't believe it. Not because they're stupid, but because they're innoncent. They don't want it to be true...so they don't believe it. simple.
But the truth is pretty simple: there are very few clean riders.
Martial Saugy, one of the men in charge of the Lausanne lab, possibly the most advanced when it comes to analysing test samples, has said many many times that they can show from their test results that pretty much everyone is doped.
It's just that the standard to be able to consider a test "positive" is so insanely high that everyone gets away with it.
In short: yes, this is very normal. But most fans will continue to not believe it, just because they don't want to.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
issoisso wrote:
Wrong forum. This is the technical issues forum.
And yes, it's perfectly normal for riders to be doped their entire careers and not be caught ever.
It's the extremely obvious thing that retired riders keep saying.
But fans don't believe it. Not because they're stupid, but because they're innoncent. They don't want it to be true...so they don't believe it. simple.
But the truth is pretty simple: there are very few clean riders.
Martial Saugy, one of the men in charge of the Lausanne lab, possibly the most advanced when it comes to analysing test samples, has said many many times that they can show from their test results that pretty much everyone is doped.
It's just that the standard to be able to consider a test "positive" is so insanely high that everyone gets away with it.
In short: yes, this is very normal. But most fans will continue to not believe it, just because they don't want to.
I agree with you, but it is still awaful to see that they're doping and not being honest with their fans
The thing that amuses me is the Blood-passport. As long as a rider keeps doping continuously, it actually helps riders look clean as it normalises their doped values. Like, what a great idea, man!
issoisso wrote:Martial Saugy, one of the men in charge of the Lausanne lab, possibly the most advanced when it comes to analysing test samples, has said many many times that they can show from their test results that pretty much everyone is doped.
It's just that the standard to be able to consider a test "positive" is so insanely high that everyone gets away with it.
issoisso wrote:Martial Saugy, one of the men in charge of the Lausanne lab, possibly the most advanced when it comes to analysing test samples, has said many many times that they can show from their test results that pretty much everyone is doped.
It's just that the standard to be able to consider a test "positive" is so insanely high that everyone gets away with it.
Can they not lower the standard?
Several experts have called for this, but WADA's having none of it
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
issoisso wrote:Martial Saugy, one of the men in charge of the Lausanne lab, possibly the most advanced when it comes to analysing test samples, has said many many times that they can show from their test results that pretty much everyone is doped.
It's just that the standard to be able to consider a test "positive" is so insanely high that everyone gets away with it.
Can they not lower the standard?
Several experts have called for this, but WADA's having none of it
Well, it could lower the accuracy of the tests from 99.9% to 99.8%...
issoisso wrote:Martial Saugy, one of the men in charge of the Lausanne lab, possibly the most advanced when it comes to analysing test samples, has said many many times that they can show from their test results that pretty much everyone is doped.
It's just that the standard to be able to consider a test "positive" is so insanely high that everyone gets away with it.
I can't believe this, partially because it would be massively dissapointing but mainly because doping results are predictable. If everyone were doping then how come everyone knew Sella, Ricco, Kohl etc. would be caught? It just doesn't really make sense.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182]Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
mb2612 wrote:
I can't believe this, partially because it would be massively dissapointing
Thank you for proving my point
mb2612 wrote:
but mainly because doping results are predictable. If everyone were doping then how come everyone knew Sella, Ricco, Kohl etc. would be caught? It just doesn't really make sense.
They used CERA, which not many more did, because they were told by "certain someones" it wasn't was detectable. which it was.
Using CERA they had a massive advantage that others didn't.
The supposed "fact" that if everyone dopes, everyone is on level ground is just another myth that the average fan believes, that is just that: a myth.
The reality is, that the more money you have, the better the "treatments" you have access to. Better means both more powerful and harder to detect. Or in the case of most, impossible to detect.
Fuentes, and many other doctors who ran doping rings have said this last part time and time and time and time and time and time again.
Face it, the real reason you don't believe it is exactly what's above: you don't want to.
The situation won't disappear just because you want to pretend it's not there.
There's a glimmer of hope, however. Saugy did say that every time a new test for a new drug is publicized, the peloton's blood values take a dive to normal human values....then they steadily rise back up again.
Saugy says that since the blood passport came into effect, the rise has been far less than usual.
Edited by issoisso on 28-05-2009 00:03
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
mb2612 wrote:
I can't believe this, partially because it would be massively dissapointing
Thank you for proving my point
Oh, i agree with that point, I know I could be much more cynical about cycling but I prefer to maintain my innocence.
issoisso wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
but mainly because doping results are predictable. If everyone were doping then how come everyone knew Sella, Ricco, Kohl etc. would be caught? It just doesn't really make sense.
They used CERA, which not many more did, because they were told by "certain someones" it wasn't was detectable. which it was.
Using CERA they had a massive advantage that others didn't.
The supposed "fact" that if everyone dopes, everyone is on level ground is just another myth that the average fan believes, that is just that: a myth.
The reality is, that the more money you have, the better the "treatments" you have access to. Better means both more powerful and harder to detect. Or in the case of most, impossible to detect.
Fuentes, and many other doctors who ran doping rings have said this last part time and time and time and time and time and time again.
Face it, the real reason you don't believe it is exactly what's above: you don't want to.
The situation won't disappear just because you want to pretend it's not there.
There's a glimmer of hope, however. Saugy did say that every time a new test for a new drug is publicized, the peloton's blood values take a dive to normal human values....then they steadily rise back up again.
Saugy says that since the blood passport came into effect, the rise has been far less than usual.
I agree with you that there must be differences in the quality of doping and that gives people an advantage as obviously as a difference in the quality of training, however I do have two qualms with your post.
Firstly, as far as I understand the major advantage of CERA is that it lasts longer and hence you need to only inject yourself less, so I am not sure what the massive advantage is.
Secondly, it sounds like Saugy has said soem pretty inflamatory things, it surprises me that no one has sued him yet. Do you have a link to those comments about the blood passport.
Edited by mb2612 on 28-05-2009 00:20
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182]Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
mb2612 wrote:
Firstly, as far as I understand the major advantage of CERA is that it lasts longer and hence you need to only inject yourself less, so I am not sure what the massive advantage is.
The major advantage, or so they thought, was that, as they thought it was undetectable, they were able to inject large quantities, instead of microdosing as most do
mb2612 wrote:
Secondly, it sounds like Saugy has said soem pretty inflamatory things, it surprises me that no one has sued him yet. Do you have a link to those comments about the blood passport.
No, I don't keep the link. But it shouldn't be too hard to find the articles by googling "Martial Saugy". He can't have said that much to cycling media.
As for someone suing him, no one's stupid enough to do that. That would allow him to bring all his proof into court. The teams prefer to ignore him and let it subside.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Ok, thanks, I have found a couple of links but, as they are in French, I will look over them tomorrow when I am more awake. Also, if his evidence would stand up in court then, surely he could axtually go after the dopers as opposed to making the ocasional comment in the media.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182]Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
It is simple, all rider are doped. The time that they take to complete a stage is impossible for an normal human. Before Kohl's revelation, I think that the majority of the rider are doped, but after that.
mb2612 wrote:
Ok, thanks, I have found a couple of links but, as they are in French, I will look over them tomorrow when I am more awake. Also, if his evidence would stand up in court then, surely he could axtually go after the dopers as opposed to making the ocasional comment in the media.
If the evidence could stand up in court, the riders would've been banned.
What the guy says is that legally speaking, the riders are not doped. But from a 'medical' perspective, there's no way that the tests can look the way they do unless the riders are doped.
To some extend you see indeed that the blood passport is working. Look at the current Giro for example. Which team does not have the blood passport........LPR
which riders are performing better than ever..........LPR (not only Di Luca), also riders like Spezialetti, Bosisio.
In general you see the continental teams becoming stronger in relation to the Pro Tour teams, so the margins become lower.
mb2612 wrote:
Ok, thanks, I have found a couple of links but, as they are in French, I will look over them tomorrow when I am more awake. Also, if his evidence would stand up in court then, surely he could axtually go after the dopers as opposed to making the ocasional comment in the media.
If the evidence could stand up in court, the riders would've been banned.
What the guy says is that legally speaking, the riders are not doped. But from a 'medical' perspective, there's no way that the tests can look the way they do unless the riders are doped.
Again, blame the standards for being set too high
Yeah the standards are probably too high, but, if medically the tests show irrefutably that a rider is doping then there is no doubt the UCI would ban them. Hence, I am fairly certain that the evidence is more anectodotal and, as such, is unlikely to see the light of day anytime soon.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182]Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
mb2612 wrote:
Ok, thanks, I have found a couple of links but, as they are in French, I will look over them tomorrow when I am more awake. Also, if his evidence would stand up in court then, surely he could axtually go after the dopers as opposed to making the ocasional comment in the media.
If the evidence could stand up in court, the riders would've been banned.
What the guy says is that legally speaking, the riders are not doped. But from a 'medical' perspective, there's no way that the tests can look the way they do unless the riders are doped.
Again, blame the standards for being set too high
Yeah the standards are probably too high, but, if medically the tests show irrefutably that a rider is doping then there is no doubt the UCI would ban them. Hence, I am fairly certain that the evidence is more anectodotal and, as such, is unlikely to see the light of day anytime soon.
I/m not so sure the UCI would ban them. Do you hear the UCI about Klöden? Do you hear the UCI about Valverde?
The UCI is not trying to have no dope in the sport, but they are trying to let it look like there is no dope in the sport and let it look like they are doing everything they can to catch every cheater. In reality they could as well do nothing.
