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Good or doping?
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| drugsdontwork |
Posted on 21-08-2008 18:59
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I'm really p*ssed off with cyclists who dominates races getting accused of doping. Therefore, after the events of the last week in Beijing does anybody want to continue the trend and accues the British cycling team of doping (Hoy et al)? If not why not? If their performances were on the road rather than the track, we'd all be hammering them (at least most of us).
Personally I like to live in my naive little world where every so often you do get exceptional athletes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying doping goes on (the more we catche the better - shoot 'em all, I'll pull the trigger!) but we can't go on accusing people without real (or at least VERY VERY good circumstantial) evidence.
While I'm on the subject, what about Usain Bolt (who I think is clean) he's performing exceptionally and no one's taking shots at him (good job he's not a cyclist).
****** Rant Over ****** |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:02
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drugsdontwork wrote:
I'm really p*ssed off with cyclists who dominates races getting accused of doping. Therefore, after the events of the last week in Beijing does anybody want to continue the trend and accues the British cycling team of doping (Hoy et al)? If not why not? If their performances were on the road rather than the track, we'd all be hammering them (at least most of us).
Because track is such a little thing in the majority of countries (in most cycling countries you ask a cycling fan about track and he'll say "What's that?" ), so with the numbers that the british and australians have practicing it, it's only natural that they'll win. It's like americans winning at american football.
drugsdontwork wrote:
Personally I like to live in my naive little world where every so often you do get exceptional athletes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying doping goes on (the more we catche the better - shoot 'em all, I'll pull the trigger!) but we can't go on accusing people without real (or at least VERY VERY good circumstantial) evidence.
While I'm on the subject, what about Usain Bolt (who I think is clean) he's performing exceptionally and no one's taking shots at him (good job he's not a cyclist).
No one's taking shots? you haven't been reading many forums lately 
Edited by issoisso on 21-08-2008 19:02
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| drugsdontwork |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:16
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That's my case in point though, when one person dominates in track everyone says it's because they're great, train better, priviliged etc.
However, as soon as anyone dominates in road then they're doped!
Does that mean no road rider can ever win and not be a doper? Are we all just paranoid? When will it stop? Will it ever stop?
AAAAAARRRRGHHHHHH!!!!!!! My heads Exploding........ |
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| alex153 |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:20
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I could make a long, long answer to this....but short answer is.
Does that mean no road rider can ever win and not be a doper? YES
Are we all just paranoid? YES
When will it stop? STOP?
Will it ever stop? NO
2 swedish cycling silver in the olympicsB)
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:22
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drugsdontwork wrote:
That's my case in point though, when one person dominates in track everyone says it's because they're great, train better, priviliged etc.
However, as soon as anyone dominates in road then they're doped!
Because on the road, there's actually a decent number of people riding from all countries and the level of competition is actually high. Track, few countries care about it at all...
drugsdontwork wrote:
Does that mean no road rider can ever win and not be a doper? Are we all just paranoid? When will it stop? Will it ever stop?
AAAAAARRRRGHHHHHH!!!!!!! My heads Exploding........
...which means that the level of road riding is so hard that you won't see a clean winner of a grand tour or monument. Can clean riders win big races? All the time. Just not the 3 Grand Tours or the 5 Monuments. The effect of drugs is that big.
I still think the day will come when it's clean. I just don't think it'll happen in my lifetime.
Edited by issoisso on 21-08-2008 19:23
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| chuckie |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:26
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What's the drug testing system in track,it's hardly the same as road?
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:28
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Track is more or less down to power, and very short efforts. When you look at our Madison and Points race attempts, again you see that the Brits aren't the absolute best.
You also have to remember that as a country, Britain has now been pumping lottery funding into these areas to increase training and performance. As an article said on cycling news the other day. We can afford (and do) buy and hire THE best coaches, psychologists, nutritionists, etc etc. The funding available to British Cycling at the moment is the highest it has ever been. If another country put in the same funding they too would have the results. If you look at Malaysia, they have suddenly also had an (albeit small) increase in funding, and they see an instant improvements. Beating many of their own country records in this game. The Kiwis are the same.
You also see the effect of a reduced budget - The Aussies - as they are yet to get a medal (i think...) on the track.
Don't worry though, in another 8 years Britain won't be the best any more....
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk]  [/url] |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:29
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chuckie wrote:
What's the drug testing system in track,it's hardly the same as road?
If I recall Anne Gripper's comments correctly, it's the same only it has very little funding so very few tests are conducted at all.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:31
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chuckie wrote:
What's the drug testing system in track,it's hardly the same as road?
Its exactly the same. All riders have to ride on a team of kinds, and are tested as in regards to the UCI requirements. Hence Rob Hayles got busted... i mean "tested non-negative" for a higher than normal haematocrit level pre-world champs and wasn't allowed to race.
Plus many riders on the track (in the endurance events) race for a trade team (Wiggins, Cav, Clancy, Thomas, McGee, Ignatiev, etc, etc)
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| chuckie |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:42
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issoisso wrote:
chuckie wrote:
What's the drug testing system in track,it's hardly the same as road?
If I recall Anne Gripper's comments correctly, it's the same only it has very little funding so very few tests are conducted at all.
That's what I thought, so basically it's a few generations behind when it comes to testing.
I'd like to see Chris Hoy's diet!
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| Stairs |
Posted on 21-08-2008 19:46
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For me, it all comes down to the extraterrestrialism or not. When Carlos Sastre rides two and a half minutes slower than Pantani on Alpe d'Huez, I think it would be hard to claim that it is out of this world - but when Emanuele Sella on not one, not two, but three occasions almost makes a fool of all the favourites, it's definitely out of this world. And that is not even including the Corones. When Usain Bolt beats the ultimate world record from a time when doping was at its heights, I become suspicious. There's a very subtle border between very good and extraterrestrial.
So, the allegations will never stop but to put every rider in the dope-box because they are actually good at their job (cycling, that is) or because of what they did a decade ago, that is just frivolous. If you don't believe in any of the riders and you just won't believe in any of the work put in by Damsgaard, Ashenden, UCI (the blood passport on longer terms, of course) and AFLD, why do you even bother to follow cycling? 
Never.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 21-08-2008 20:06
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Track is more about short efforts, making it more difficult to be sure of anything, unless you saw it yourself (I mean if you'd be an insider and see a team doping all its riders that'd be it), you have no real way to be sure.
Road racing is more about endurance. There are reliable and scientific ways to have an opinion about riders, I mean wattages calculations.
Difference between sprint and endurance is that sprint relies a lot on natural talent (not all people are gifted the same) whereas endurance allows thresholds to be set about what's being normal, and what is clearly not (natural gifts also exist here, but have a much lesser influence). We can hammer riders who ride THAT fast on mountains without needing a positive test, it's more difficult for track riders.
That being said, our lack of scientifical evidence does not prove anything, neither that they're clean, neither that they're doped.
I, personnaly, am of the opinion that there must be something wrong with UK track teams, but it's nothing more than an opinion, I have nothing to back it up. I'm just hoping that they'll be caught one day if they're cheating. |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 21-08-2008 20:25
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Aquarius wrote:
I, personnaly, am of the opinion that there must be something wrong with UK track teams, but it's nothing more than an opinion, I have nothing to back it up. I'm just hoping that they'll be caught one day if they're cheating.
Typical frenchman, cant stand losing to the Brits
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| chuckie |
Posted on 21-08-2008 20:35
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
I, personnaly, am of the opinion that there must be something wrong with UK track teams, but it's nothing more than an opinion, I have nothing to back it up. I'm just hoping that they'll be caught one day if they're cheating.
Typical frenchman, cant stand losing to the Brits
Don't you mean England
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-08-2008 20:40
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Stairs wrote:
For me, it all comes down to the extraterrestrialism or not. When Carlos Sastre rides two and a half minutes slower than Pantani on Alpe d'Huez, I think it would be hard to claim that it is out of this world
All the measurements of Pantani around have been for one length of the climb and all the ones of Sastre I've seen have been for a different length of the climb. So if those are the same that I've seen they can't be compared.
Stairs wrote:and you just won't believe in any of the work put in by Damsgaard, Ashenden, UCI (the blood passport on longer terms, of course) and AFLD, why do you even bother to follow cycling?
I don't think anyone believes the UCI and the AFLD are dirty. It's just the current tests aren't reliable. It's very easy to dope and not get caught.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Stairs |
Posted on 21-08-2008 21:04
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issoisso wrote:
Stairs wrote:
For me, it all comes down to the extraterrestrialism or not. When Carlos Sastre rides two and a half minutes slower than Pantani on Alpe d'Huez, I think it would be hard to claim that it is out of this world
All the measurements of Pantani around have been for one length of the climb and all the ones of Sastre I've seen have been for a different length of the climb. So if those are the same that I've seen they can't be compared.
Pantani's 95-record of 36.50 was taken from the same point as Sastre's - and no, don't trust the Wikipedia-article. The 37.35 was taken with about 14.5 km to the top while Sastre's was with about 13.5 to the top.
issoisso wrote:Stairs wrote:and you just won't believe in any of the work put in by Damsgaard, Ashenden, UCI (the blood passport on longer terms, of course) and AFLD, why do you even bother to follow cycling?
I don't think anyone believes the UCI and the AFLD are dirty. It's just the current tests aren't reliable. It's very easy to dope and not get caught.
Indeed, most of the tests aren't reliable - and that is exactly the point of the blood passport and at least Damsgaards system. You measure the fluctuations in the riders values - propably the reason for Gusev's and Astarloa's sacking :-P
Never.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-08-2008 21:20
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Stairs wrote:
Pantani's 95-record of 36.50 was taken from the same point as Sastre's - and no, don't trust the Wikipedia-article. The 37.35 was taken with about 14.5 km to the top while Sastre's was with about 13.5 to the top.
no idea what wikipedia article you're talking about. I've seen many sources, many of them wrong. If that one's right, kudos to them.
Stairs wrote:
Indeed, most of the tests aren't reliable - and that is exactly the point of the blood passport and at least Damsgaards system. You measure the fluctuations in the riders values - propably the reason for Gusev's and Astarloa's sacking :-P
And the reason WADA has been targetting certain riders including F.Schleck and Cancellara?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 21-08-2008 21:25
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Stairs wrote:
For me, it all comes down to the extraterrestrialism or not. When Carlos Sastre rides two and a half minutes slower than Pantani on Alpe d'Huez, I think it would be hard to claim that it is out of this world - but when Emanuele Sella on not one, not two, but three occasions almost makes a fool of all the favourites, it's definitely out of this world. And that is not even including the Corones. When Usain Bolt beats the ultimate world record from a time when doping was at its heights, I become suspicious. There's a very subtle border between very good and extraterrestrial.
I must admit i believe he is clean. If you actually look at what his build is, he's clearly a foot higher than every other sprinter. Thats because sprinting is usually down to moving the legs at the speed of light. Somehow he's overcome the height issue and can move his legs at the same speed, rather than slower like a normal tall person. This enables him to combine the speed with the leg stride = bloomin' fast!
As much as you all will claim he's taken drugs to do it all. I'm keeping my brain intact by believing he hasn't.
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-08-2008 21:28
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That's the spirit rjc!! He's clean, the fact that his times dropped immensely the moment the jamaican federation cancelled all testing is a simple coincidence!!
right on 
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 21-08-2008 21:31
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Ok..I am not so pessimistic as isso..
Situation is horrible...only comfort for situation is that I got so much beaten with cycling doping scandals. That when I see other sport..damn they are down. So many schocking news in the air.
Great ASO job..at least once in the year we get fresh list of dopers..UCI is still useless at the moment..and I dont want to even start about Vuelta and giro story.
Ukraina silver medalist get..life time ban..second time..how stupid can this lady be?
Still lifetime ban is only way and should be next step..
About trek and road..I still like to belive Kirsipuu ..sprinter can live without a doping..climber not.
Edited by Guido Mukk on 21-08-2008 21:32
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