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Vuelta a España - Week 3
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| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 03-09-2012 22:32
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baseballlover312 wrote:
sutty68 wrote:
I am not a fan of any of the top three, but i really hope Contador will have one attack which leaves Rodriguez struggling, because his wheel sucking is really pissing me off now 
And how is Wiggins better?
OMG duuuh, he's British!!! |
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| ruben |
Posted on 03-09-2012 22:58
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alexkr00 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Good ride by Anton today.
And Froome beaten by Ten Dam and de Clerq 
Ten Dam could actually be better than Gesink, I think. But, for some reason he's still staying with Robert and tries to help him.
No. They both rode their own race today. Ten Dam has a free role since the first of 3 mountain stages. He had a free role yesterday as well (but Gesink was better as him there). Now they were (almost) equal.
He didn't 'stay' with Robert because he had to. He stayed with him because he couldn't go faster |
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 03-09-2012 23:01
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ruben wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Good ride by Anton today.
And Froome beaten by Ten Dam and de Clerq
Ten Dam could actually be better than Gesink, I think. But, for some reason he's still staying with Robert and tries to help him.
No. They both rode their own race today. Ten Dam has a free role since the first of 3 mountain stages. He had a free role yesterday as well (but Gesink was better as him there). Now they were (almost) equal.
He didn't 'stay' with Robert because he had to. He stayed with him because he couldn't go faster
From what I saw on TV, Ten Dam was staying in front of Gesink and looked to me like he was trying to pace Gesink. That's why I thought he was waiting for him.
Anyway, it looks like Ten Dam will get his first top 10 in a GT and that's awesome for him.
Edited by alexkr00 on 03-09-2012 23:06
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| solano |
Posted on 03-09-2012 23:08
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I'm not a fan of these crazily steep and narrow climbs. They are too steep for anyone to really attack on, plus the width of the road restricts riders going past other riders (and that's without the idiotic fans who stand in the way). Contador was held up by a motorbike yesterday as he tried to get a gap on Rodriguez. I don't see the point of it. |
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 03-09-2012 23:35
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Actually I think the motorbike was helping Contador rather than holding him up. I remember that, in 2007, the Chicken was upset because a motorbike was riding too close when Contador was attacking.
And on the steep climbs is where you see the big gaps. But, of course you won't see any if the riders are equally strong.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 04-09-2012 06:02
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So is 2012 Purito the best pure climber in the recent years? I have never seen such destroyed Contador in the mountains. Or Conta is just short on "power"? I would like to see top form Purito against best Sky train and healthy Schleck at the Tour, but the course would not suit him so much.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 04-09-2012 06:35
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Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Purito's ought to be somewhere around 395/400. Stands no chance against Froome or Wiggins in TDF form (or Contador when he comes back to his former level).
edit : should doping be legalised ? "Yes, it allows riders to attack more and makes the races all more dramatic". Clearly nobody seems to mind that riders climb slower than in others recent G.T., and the fact that they can't sustain a very high pace after a dozen of attacks doesn't bother people too much either. Top riders here are probably not clean, but their performances remain within human range, is that really bad ?
Edited by Aquarius on 04-09-2012 06:38
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 04-09-2012 07:07
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Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Purito's ought to be somewhere around 395/400. Stands no chance against Froome or Wiggins in TDF form (or Contador when he comes back to his former level).
edit : should doping be legalised ? "Yes, it allows riders to attack more and makes the races all more dramatic". Clearly nobody seems to mind that riders climb slower than in others recent G.T., and the fact that they can't sustain a very high pace after a dozen of attacks doesn't bother people too much either. Top riders here are probably not clean, but their performances remain within human range, is that really bad ?
No, more human level is better of course, i was just looking for these numbers with my question, thanks for posting them.
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| Strydz |
Posted on 04-09-2012 08:20
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solano wrote:
I'm not a fan of these crazily steep and narrow climbs. They are too steep for anyone to really attack on, plus the width of the road restricts riders going past other riders (and that's without the idiotic fans who stand in the way). Contador was held up by a motorbike yesterday as he tried to get a gap on Rodriguez. I don't see the point of it.
I like the steep climbs, as long as they are placed in the correct stages. The sap some energy and make it a real race. If Contador was up to his race level he would have gapped Purito, with the stage placed before a rest day and with another mountain stage to come then what is the problem with this type of climb? It makes it a true GT and also provides a better challenge than this years Le Tour (sky train or not)
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| hyenen2 |
Posted on 04-09-2012 08:32
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Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Where do u get those numbers from? |
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| solano |
Posted on 04-09-2012 08:40
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Aquarius, to answer your question, I don't care if riders are going slower, if it means that they are clean.
Would F1 be any less exciting, to those that like it, if a rule change meant that all the cars went 10 mph slower? They probably wouldn't notice as there would still be racing.
It's the same with cycling. I don't watch it to see the fastest Tour stage ever, I watch it to see a great sprint finish, or someone win from a break or someone dance up a climb. The speed is irrelevant. |
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| Strydz |
Posted on 04-09-2012 08:57
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solano wrote:
Aquarius, to answer your question, I don't care if riders are going slower, if it means that they are clean.
Would F1 be any less exciting, to those that like it, if a rule change meant that all the cars went 10 mph slower? They probably wouldn't notice as there would still be racing.
It's the same with cycling. I don't watch it to see the fastest Tour stage ever, I watch it to see a great sprint finish, or someone win from a break or someone dance up a climb. The speed is irrelevant.
%100 agree
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| SotD |
Posted on 04-09-2012 09:15
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Yeah speed is irrelevant - I'm participating next year btw.
Purito as the best climber in recent years is a bit of an exageration imo, he's good no doubt, but in the league of Contador, Froome, Schleck in top form i don't think. He has always been among the very best in the world on short steep climbs/finishes, where he has a magnificent ability to dig a little bit deeper than the rest.
If he was riding Le Tour in top shape, I would reckon a top 3 would be a real struggle. The pace up the climbs seems much tougher in order to control the race, and I don't see him doing that among the very best.
Contador is imo the best climber since Armstrong, and that he doesn't win the Vuelta (if he doesn't) won't make me change that oppinion. He just came back to racing in a pack, and no matter how good form you are in, some of the racing strength comes from racing in the pack. Alberto might have used up reserves in the flat, that he normally wouldn't waste. I don't know, but I think Purito isn't anyway near the top league if they really pull a strain.
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| Montolivo |
Posted on 04-09-2012 09:19
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Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Purito's ought to be somewhere around 395/400. Stands no chance against Froome or Wiggins in TDF form (or Contador when he comes back to his former level).
edit : should doping be legalised ? "Yes, it allows riders to attack more and makes the races all more dramatic". Clearly nobody seems to mind that riders climb slower than in others recent G.T., and the fact that they can't sustain a very high pace after a dozen of attacks doesn't bother people too much either. Top riders here are probably not clean, but their performances remain within human range, is that really bad ?
Very nice to know the numbers. Does the numbers include the shorter and steep ones aswell?
If it does it means it could be even lower whitout the steep ones as it's easier to produce more watts on shorter and steeper ones then in the Tour.
So Froome, Nibali and Wiggins would easily outclimb Rodriguez when in form. |
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| aymen |
Posted on 04-09-2012 09:23
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Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Purito's ought to be somewhere around 395/400. Stands no chance against Froome or Wiggins in TDF form (or Contador when he comes back to his former level).
edit : should doping be legalised ? "Yes, it allows riders to attack more and makes the races all more dramatic". Clearly nobody seems to mind that riders climb slower than in others recent G.T., and the fact that they can't sustain a very high pace after a dozen of attacks doesn't bother people too much either. Top riders here are probably not clean, but their performances remain within human range, is that really bad ?
I was reading about this numbers in some articles last year, you can
add Cunego at the Tour of Suisse, Frank Schleck at The Critéirium Internation,Some irreal Numbers tough, but if you take in count the technology and what it brings,it's possible.
Anyway to answer your question , From your Numbers, it will be certain that Rodriguez or Contador doesn't stand a chance against Froome or Wiggins, That's if the race is to hard but if the leaders are just having fun in the first part of the race, be sure that it will be more suitable for Rodriguez, Remember that the Vuelta Climbs are more for Punchers/Climbers that true Climbers, Short Climb and high Pourcentage,but in Tour De France for example you have the succession of Galibier, Télégraphe,la redoute and la Toussuire.
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| aymen |
Posted on 04-09-2012 09:25
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Montolivo wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Purito's ought to be somewhere around 395/400. Stands no chance against Froome or Wiggins in TDF form (or Contador when he comes back to his former level).
edit : should doping be legalised ? "Yes, it allows riders to attack more and makes the races all more dramatic". Clearly nobody seems to mind that riders climb slower than in others recent G.T., and the fact that they can't sustain a very high pace after a dozen of attacks doesn't bother people too much either. Top riders here are probably not clean, but their performances remain within human range, is that really bad ?
Very nice to know the numbers. Does the numbers include the shorter and steep ones aswell?
If it does it means it could be even lower whitout the steep ones as it's easier to produce more watts on shorter and steeper ones then in the Tour.
So Froome, Nibali and Wiggins would easily outclimb Rodriguez when in form.
Don't Understimate Nibali according to the Giro, He wasn't in his level that time and he develloped well this last year, but lost some ability in time trial tough(losing 6 minutes to Wiggins , ah sorry it's Wiggins)
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| Montolivo |
Posted on 04-09-2012 09:34
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aymen wrote:
Montolivo wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Purito's ought to be somewhere around 395/400. Stands no chance against Froome or Wiggins in TDF form (or Contador when he comes back to his former level).
edit : should doping be legalised ? "Yes, it allows riders to attack more and makes the races all more dramatic". Clearly nobody seems to mind that riders climb slower than in others recent G.T., and the fact that they can't sustain a very high pace after a dozen of attacks doesn't bother people too much either. Top riders here are probably not clean, but their performances remain within human range, is that really bad ?
Very nice to know the numbers. Does the numbers include the shorter and steep ones aswell?
If it does it means it could be even lower whitout the steep ones as it's easier to produce more watts on shorter and steeper ones then in the Tour.
So Froome, Nibali and Wiggins would easily outclimb Rodriguez when in form.
Don't Understimate Nibali according to the Giro, He wasn't in his level that time and he develloped well this last year, but lost some ability in time trial tough(losing 6 minutes to Wiggins , ah sorry it's Wiggins)
I'm talking about this years Tour not Giro d'Italia 2011. He hasn't lost his TT ability, I would rather say he has improved from last years to this year and as for Wiggins everybody is losing truckloads of time in the TT's compared to him. Nibali was the third best in the TT's of the GC people behind only Wiggins and Froome this year. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 04-09-2012 11:27
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hyenen2 wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Contador's 2010 Tour : 415 Watts average (425 at Tourmalet)
Contador's 2012 Giro : 420 W
Contador's 2011 Tour : 405 W
Contador's 2012 Vuelta : 390 W
Froome's 2012 TDF : 420 W average
Froome's 2012 Vuelta : 380 W average
Where do u get those numbers from?
Cyclismag when it still existed, various sources of or by Fred Grappe, Fred Portoleau, Antoine Vayer otherwise. And a little math by myself.  |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 04-09-2012 11:29
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Montolivo wrote:
Very nice to know the numbers. Does the numbers include the shorter and steep ones aswell?
If it does it means it could be even lower whitout the steep ones as it's easier to produce more watts on shorter and steeper ones then in the Tour.
No, they're not included. Power outputs were quite similar to those of La Planche des Belles Filles stage in those ones.
Montolivo wrote:
So Froome, Nibali and Wiggins would easily outclimb Rodriguez when in form.
Basically, yes. But Rodriguez was slightly better than that in this year's Giro (about 5/10 W more). That plus the bonus seconds system tend to show he's rather defending and going for the bonus than trying to create a gap as big as possible. Those powers would rather put him around the fifth position in the TDF (even lower actually as he'd lose truckloads of time on long flat ITT).
Edited by Aquarius on 04-09-2012 11:32
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| Jupi |
Posted on 04-09-2012 12:40
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My results show a somewhat different picture. On the shorter climbs like Gallina (22 minutes) and Ancares (27 minutes) the best where around 430 watts. That's a bit better than the two Peyresourde ascents in the Tour for roughly the same lenght of effort. I got 390 watts for yesterday as well, which is the same as La Toussuire in the Tour but that climb took them 12 minutes less (45 minutes for La Toussuire and 57 minutse yesterday). As another point of reference, the Stelvio figures from the Giro are 1h 2 minutes and a meager 350 watts. In fact, no climb longer than 20 minutes was ridden over 400 watts except Pampeago.
Lagos the Covadonga was climbed at 422 watts over 35 minutes.
Based on these numbers I'd say the best are climbing somewhat better than in the Tour and way better than in the Giro. Both Rodriguez and Valverde gained a lot of power compared to the other GT they rode this year. |
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