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Moving to PCM22
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-11-2023 17:19
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Small Tour Specialist
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TheManxMissile wrote:
This is getting a bit long and messy. We're fighting to make the game do things it's not really designed to do.
Yeah, like expecting accurate simulation of real life cycling. Its a video game that is designed to be beaten by a player. I am baffled how people still cant grasp that.
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| SotD |
Posted on 13-11-2023 17:34
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World Champion
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quadsas wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
This is getting a bit long and messy. We're fighting to make the game do things it's not really designed to do.
Yeah, like expecting accurate simulation of real life cycling. Its a video game that is designed to be beaten by a player. I am baffled how people still cant grasp that.
People CAN grasp that. Still doesn’t change the fact that the game AI changes, and we have to adapt and alter to get a viable experience from the Man-Game.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-11-2023 17:56
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Small Tour Specialist
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SotD wrote:
quadsas wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
This is getting a bit long and messy. We're fighting to make the game do things it's not really designed to do.
Yeah, like expecting accurate simulation of real life cycling. Its a video game that is designed to be beaten by a player. I am baffled how people still cant grasp that.
People CAN grasp that. Still doesn’t change the fact that the game AI changes, and we have to adapt and alter to get a viable experience from the Man-Game.
Doesnt seem like it. There is clearly absolutely no intention of adapting, just wanting everything to stay the same. I am perfectly okay with how this year is playing out, next thing youll tell me Chelsea and Ajax having stinkers somehow shows a fatal flaw in football because they shouldnt be this bad.
Its just whining. Same as every year. Try to use your brains and make yourself some headcanon rather than bitching and moaning for years now (this is of course not limited to you)
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| SotD |
Posted on 13-11-2023 19:22
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World Champion
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I’m fine with you being happy with the game. I Can see a lot of harmful results for top sprinters in particular. Sure, everyone Can just decide not to sign the 5 best sprinters, but that just rolls down the issue.
For a game like ours it doesn’t work if we have one or more of the key stat areas not working. If it was somewhat random then you could accept it, but downright fucking over the best riders is obviously a mistake that need to be fixed.
If it was down to 1 rider it could be a team setting thing, but when ALL top sprinters in GC races across 3 divisions face the same issue, then it needs to be adressed for the greater good of the game.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-11-2023 21:10
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Just adapt. I dont have any issues with Halvorsen. Dont see Manninen have issues. Groenewegen is washed up and unmotivated after relegationl Dainese is inexperienced and gets outmaneuvered by veterans. Its so easy. I guess its easier to blame the game though. Next time Man City doesnt win I will go complain that foothall is broken because how could a team with better players not win?
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 19:17
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| SotD |
Posted on 13-11-2023 22:11
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World Champion
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You’re something else, that’s for sure…
The pathetic analogies doesn’t really do you any good, I’m sure you realize that.
It’s not difficult to adapt, but sometimes the game needs to adapt and not the players in order to have a game worth playing.
Oh well, I guess it’s pointless having this discussion with you. I’ll keep it up with the grown ups. Then you Can continue whatever foolish game it is you have going with yourself trying to convince yourself that you are somewhat on top of things.
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| Blasing |
Posted on 14-11-2023 08:05
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Well the CT races where my sprinters have competed in, were mostly realistic outcomes in comparison to the stats. It is a bit early to talk about a flawed engine, with no real big races being run yet.
The only constant thing in life is change. So I think we have to let the season run, see how it develops and then change things accordingly. Be it via race schedule/stage settings, different team management by the Managers or nuking the DB - blaming the software is probably the worst thing to do.
Manager of JEWA TIROL Cycling Team
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 14-11-2023 09:15
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Directeur Sportif
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I would agree that we should wait till the end of the season to see how the points look like. If the same riders win every race just because they're the favourites, why even bother with reports  Last year, there wasn't a lot off with how the points turned out despite constant complaining throughout the season. A handful of riders will always end up with lesser points than expected, trust me, I know, I had Wilco. Honestly, the only thing it does is put off managers and more importantly, the reporters.
Please do continue to list the problems though and they will be looked at. I think the sprinter favourites not performing consistently has already been noted and re-noted, so the calendar team will look into it, please be sure about that. It was already clear in PCM 20 that pure punchers don't work in stage races with TTs. Nothing has changed in that regard.
Please remember, just 2-3 people consistently do the off season testing for new game versions, and changes like these, so please be patient if each and every observation can't be tested thoroughly.
Also, I saw a suggestion about racing different terrains in different PCM versions, which would need two sets of DBs, and all other game files to be created and maintained, which is not really possible, again given the amount of off season help we tend to receive. Not blaming anyone here, it's just how it is.
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| SotD |
Posted on 14-11-2023 09:33
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World Champion
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I think the data is pretty massive so far.
At PT+PTHC level there has so far been 15 GC sprint stages.
Of those 15 only 3 have been won by top 3 favorites.
Out of 45 possible top 3 podiums, only 7 have actually been achieved.
This gives a podium succes rate of 15,6%. Not 50/50 or something similar random. 15,6%!
This is a percentage that should be given to sprinters in the region of 8-12th.
This is the top 3 sprinters performances in all GC sprint stages so far:
Tour of Tasmania, stage 1:
1 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta 4h41'48
2 Max Kanter Team Puma - SAP s.t.
15 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
Average pos: 6th - Acceptable
Tour of Qatar, stage 1:
2 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic s.t.
10 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
12 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
Average pos: 8th - Bad
Tour of Qatar, stage 2:
1 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic 3h00'37
12 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
20 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
Average pos: 11th - Horrible
Tour of Qatar, stage 3:
4 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
13 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
14 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic s.t.
Average pos: 10th - Horrible
Tour of Qatar, stage 4:
8 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic s.t.
10 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
12 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
Average pos: 10th - Horrible
Tour of Qatar, stage 5:
5 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
14 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
15 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic s.t.
Average pos: 11th - Horrible
Volta a Portugal, stage 2:
3 Tomohiro Hayakawa DuckDuckGo - Everesting s.t.
6 Lionel Coutinho Lampre - Pinarello s.t.
7 Peter Kennaugh Amaysim Australia.com s.t.
Average pos: 6th - Acceptable
Volta a Portugal, stage 4:
3 Tomohiro Hayakawa DuckDuckGo - Everesting s.t.
15 Peter Kennaugh Amaysim Australia.com s.t.
16 Lionel Coutinho Lampre - Pinarello s.t.
Average pos: 11th - Horrible
Tirreno-Adriatico, stage 2:
6 Stylianos Farantakis ELCO - ABEA s.t.
13 Max Kanter Team Puma - SAP s.t.
22 Stanislaw Aniolkowski Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska s.t.
Average pos: 14th - Horrible
Tirreno-Adriatico, stage 3:
10 Danny Van Poppel Rabobank s.t.
11 Stylianos Farantakis ELCO - ABEA s.t.
14 Max Kanter Team Puma - SAP s.t.
Average pos: 12th - Horrible
Paris-Nice, stage 1:
1 Asbjorn Kragh Andersen Carlsberg - Danske Bank 3h55'02
11 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
16 Jasper Philipsen Polar s.t.
Average pos: 9th - Bad
Paris-Nice, stage 2:
6 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
9 Asbjorn Kragh Andersen Carlsberg - Danske Bank s.t.
16 Jasper Philipsen Polar s.t.
Average pos: 10th - Horrible
Paris-Nice, stage 6:
6 Asbjorn Kragh Andersen Carlsberg - Danske Bank s.t.
13 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
14 Jasper Philipsen Polar s.t.
Average pos: 11th - Horrible
Ronde van Nederland, stage 1:
8 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
9 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
14 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic s.t.
Average pos: 10th - Horrible
Ronde van Nederland, stage 2:
8 Caleb Ewan ISA - Hexacta s.t.
13 Fernando Gaviria Moser - Sygic s.t.
16 Bryan Coquard ELCO - ABEA s.t.
Average pos: 12th - Horrible
I will be happy to provide a similar statistics for PCT and CT. I'm pretty confident that it will be somewhat similar. Perhaps a bit better, but still horribly off.
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 14-11-2023 10:46
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Grand Tour Specialist
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Thanks for compiling that, 7/45 potential podiums is incredibly worrying.
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 14-11-2023 11:22
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World Champion
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Great, now we don't only have to deal with bad AI, but also with toxic managers.
Great imput from SotD, definitely showing how bad it is. I would argue adding Juarez to the list will give similar horrible results.
Waiting till the end of the season seems a bad solution, but changing stuff halfway is unacceptably unfair. Voiding and restarting the season on a previous version might be the "least bad" option, but I can't see much support for that. So I guess we're stuck with the bad solution of finishing the season on PCM22.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 14-11-2023 13:09
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Tour de France Champion
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AbhishekLFC wrote:
Also, I saw a suggestion about racing different terrains in different PCM versions, which would need two sets of DBs, and all other game files to be created and maintained, which is not really possible, again given the amount of off season help we tend to receive. Not blaming anyone here, it's just how it is.
I didn't mean it as a genuine suggestion, for the mentioned amount of work reasons. More as a point that the MG is never perfect because PCM is never perfect, and to chase the best racing would require mixing of PCM versions.
To get acceptable racing is much easier, as there are a couple of PCM versions that would do to find a mid-ground of play across terrains.
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| SotD |
Posted on 14-11-2023 13:14
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World Champion
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@Ollfardh
Thanks
I don't see any reason to change mid-season, or reboot. My info is solely regarding the planning of the next season.
IMO the earlier we can get hold of data the better we can cope with the changes needed. The earlier we can conclude something needs to be changed, the better we can come up with relevant suggestions.
There has already been a fair few suggestions to the matter, but we obviously need brainstorming to land the best possible place.
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 14-11-2023 14:35
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Directeur Sportif
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We get enough brainstorming all through the season. Heck it's a brain blizzard mostly! But when the time comes for testing, and for making stage updates, there is hardly any volunteers. 2 people worked on new calendar stages this off season. There was 3 last season. Besides that roturn tested some of the new races. Just 1 person plus roturn is doing the stage editing. It's not feasible to catch all this in the off season.
What we need are more off season volunteers to identify these problems early. That's all I'm saying. For me the solution is in the stage design, where the wide flat finishes are causing the problems (someone can check that) but to change all the existing stages is an impossible task for just one person editing stages.
Strange that people didn't show up saying the season should be voided when 82 Hill Kelderman couldn't beat 79 hill punchers, after winning a Monument the season before that.
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 14-11-2023 14:55
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World Champion
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AbhishekLFC wrote:
Strange that people didn't show up saying the season should be voided when 82 Hill Kelderman couldn't beat 79 hill punchers, after winning a Monument the season before that.
I'm against voiding the season or restarting it or whatever after it already has started. Any changes that we are going to make should be made from next year.
But this is really not a good comparation. It's not one sprinter performing poorly. It's not even about top sprinters not winning much, it's all of them being constantly out of the top 10. It's a huge difference.
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| SotD |
Posted on 14-11-2023 15:40
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World Champion
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What Alex Said.
Also I’m not hearing anyone complaining about the effort of those doing an extraordinary effort for the game. I’m certainly not implying that this is something that should have been caught beforehand. I’m merely putting an effort into suggesting solutions for the seasons to come.
I do agree that we need more hands with off season stuff. As always I’m more than happy to do stuff that doesn’t require knowledge of PCM. If finding stages, designing calendars etc. Can be done without the game sign me up. I try to ask more than once each season whether or not there’s anything I Can do to help. This will also be the case in the ongoing proces.
There has been a period with limited access to my PC meaning that race previews haven’t been possible, but I do try to help with stuff like that too, updating points, updating/creating race calender threads etc.
I could do more - no doubt about that - but be assured that everything I say and do is in the best intentions for the game, and by no means an attempt to critisize the work being done behind the scene. Ever!
When the game doesn’t work it becomes frustrating and some (myself included) lose interest. Thus I think it’s important to take these talks before people just straight up decides to prioritize their time differently. This goes for players aswell as contributors.
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 14-11-2023 15:54
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Directeur Sportif
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alexkr00 wrote:
AbhishekLFC wrote:
Strange that people didn't show up saying the season should be voided when 82 Hill Kelderman couldn't beat 79 hill punchers, after winning a Monument the season before that.
I'm against voiding the season or restarting it or whatever after it already has started. Any changes that we are going to make should be made from next year.
But this is really not a good comparation. It's not one sprinter performing poorly. It's not even about top sprinters not winning much, it's all of them being constantly out of the top 10. It's a huge difference.
It wasn't just Kelderman. Every puncher who couldn't climb was affected and it's still the same now. Kelderman was the one that caught the eye the most because of his previous results.
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 14-11-2023 15:57
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Team Leader
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AbhishekLFC wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
AbhishekLFC wrote:
Strange that people didn't show up saying the season should be voided when 82 Hill Kelderman couldn't beat 79 hill punchers, after winning a Monument the season before that.
I'm against voiding the season or restarting it or whatever after it already has started. Any changes that we are going to make should be made from next year.
But this is really not a good comparation. It's not one sprinter performing poorly. It's not even about top sprinters not winning much, it's all of them being constantly out of the top 10. It's a huge difference.
It wasn't just Kelderman. Every puncher who couldn't climb was affected and it's still the same now. Kelderman was the one that caught the eye the most because of his previous results.
Eiking checking in.
Also, big ups to the crew that works behind the scences in this game. It's a thankless job sometimes.
I didn't do any kits this year, due to time. I might be able to contribute there again next off season. FYI
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| Nemolito |
Posted on 14-11-2023 16:12
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Classics Specialist
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AbhishekLFC wrote:For me the solution is in the stage design, where the wide flat finishes are causing the problems.
This, this, this and this again. I have reported on a lot of races in pcm 18 and 20 and have always seen this as one of the biggest problems of lead-outs being an absolute mess, and this game version definitely doesn't seem to help our problem.
I am not saying every lead-out will always deliver the winner/top-3 when we can find some people to go back to 'normal' pcm finishes, but of course that also shouldn't be our goal.
I think the switch to long and extremely wide roads in (sprint) races were done the season I joined (or the one before), precisely in order to fix a sprinting 'problem' where top sprinters won too much, but by doing so, we created a new and seemingly way bigger problem. Pcm obviously wasn't made for 20+ 78 sprinters in one race to start with, but making the stages finish like this basically destroyed the AI. Like I said, only having 'normal' pcm roads won't magically make everyone happy, but the results seem to be way more normal/acceptable there. At least that's what I've noticed in the reports I have done myself.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 14-11-2023 16:23
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
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Nemolito wrote:
AbhishekLFC wrote:For me the solution is in the stage design, where the wide flat finishes are causing the problems.
This, this, this and this again. I have reported on a lot of races in pcm 18 and 20 and have always seen this as one of the biggest problems of lead-outs being an absolute mess, and this game version definitely doesn't seem to help our problem.
I am not saying every lead-out will always deliver the winner/top-3 when we can find some people to go back to 'normal' pcm finishes, but of course that also shouldn't be our goal.
I think the switch to long and extremely wide roads in (sprint) races were done the season I joined (or the one before), precisely in order to fix a sprinting 'problem' where top sprinters won too much, but by doing so, we created a new and seemingly way bigger problem. Pcm obviously wasn't made for 20+ 78 sprinters in one race to start with, but making the stages finish like this basically destroyed the AI. Like I said, only having 'normal' pcm roads won't magically make everyone happy, but the results seem to be way more normal/acceptable there. At least that's what I've noticed in the reports I have done myself.
If i recall the flat stage finishes were adjusted because in PCM 18 (?) only one leadout would ever survive turns due to poor AI handling solid rider models. Leading to strung out results where either you got on the right train or got nothing (something like that).
So if we're seeing now the opposite where leadouts are not strong enough, the stage design makes things worse.
But it's always been a case that sprints were comfortably the worst part of PCM. PCM10 you'd get glitched where the sprinter couldn't stop following the lead-out man. PCM12 was weird with ACC I think. PCM18 has the above, plus was that the edition with superpowered slipstream? PCM15 in my memory was a better sprint, but then it was other terrains it lacked in.
Heck, I spent years tied to Ewan suffering through it all and eventually gave up because the AI just can't make it work (tbf human controlled sprinting wasn't much better, far too exploitable because of the above mentioned issues). But again a big thing for me is the DB does nothing to help, only make problems worse.
Downside is testing an older PCM version requires converting the DB backwards, which I guess is quite a bit of time to do. I'd suggest coming back to this problem mid-season with a full overview of how all three divisions are going. SotD's above is relatively clear for PT, but in my head CT has worked reasonably well in the sprints so far, and this division has the most "normal" DB distribution. Anyway, just a few other thoughts.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
