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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 03-04-2022 16:17
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
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How are you not banned?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 03-04-2022 18:04
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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82 cobble for Pogacar really is in the realms of fantasy  Admittedly cobble stats over the last few years have become much harder to stat with so many unexpected results and so many "proper" cobble riders just not doing as well as they should. In fact Paris-Roubaix is probably the only cobble race that is the true indicator imo of the cobble stat at the moment. That of course is with the exception of the 2021 edition, due to its later season date was really just about who was still in form.
I think for the cobble stats, there is going to be a decrease in stats with the number of established cobble riders who haven't performed that well over recent seasons and those that are on their way out.
Pogacar just follows in the line of big name non-cobble riders that have featured in Flanders over recent seasons: Valverde, Nibali and Alaphilippe who did the best and would've finished at least 3rd in 2020 had he not had that bizarre crash towards the end.
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 03-04-2022 18:11
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
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In my opinion Pogaçar with 76/77 in COB its enough |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 03-04-2022 18:53
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
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Tafiolmo wrote:
In fact Paris-Roubaix is probably the only cobble race that is the true indicator imo of the cobble stat at the moment.
Exactly this. I have the feeling that your "cobbles" ability less and less decides whether you actually win a cobbled race these days, but that it's more about teammates, punch, race intelligence and pure strength.
Spoiler If only PCM would remodel their stats in an FM-way 
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 03-04-2022 22:39
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
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That genuinely made me laugh.
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| Arberg |
Posted on 04-04-2022 05:53
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
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Pogacar was the strongest rider in the Tour of Flanders on the cobble. Only MVDP could keep up with him. So he deserves one of the highest cobble and hill stats in the game.
Edited by Arberg on 17-04-2022 15:21
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 12:14
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| gargatouf |
Posted on 06-04-2022 08:59
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 320
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The cobbles in Flanders aren’t as tough as the ones in Paris-Roubaix. In the game, can Pogacar be there at the end of a race with low 70’s COB stats, but high HIL and physical stats? I’ve never tried. If he can, then that will be more than enough. If he races Roubaix in a couple of weeks and is up front with VdP for another two man sprint, then I think we can up his COB stats to the 80’s.
There were a lot of riders I was very impressed with. Being a bit of a Groupama fan, I was extremely impressed with Le Gac who was always there towards the end of the classics helping Kung and Madouas, but also Geniets and these two did a lot of great work for the leaders. There is a pretty decent classics squad now at Groupama FDJ. |
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| TheGameOfGame |
Posted on 06-04-2022 15:46
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Amateur
Posts: 9
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I Think Pogacar is 80 Cobble at least … AND SO FAR |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 17-04-2022 23:08
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
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What should van Baarle, Van Aert, Pogacar, MVDP and all the others have in cobble stats ?
I think something like this:
82: Van Del Poel, Van Aert.
81: Pogacar, van Baarle, Küng.
80: Asgreen, Mohoric, Stuyven, Lampaert.
79: Van Avermaet, Mads P, Pidcock, Kristoff, Laporte, Colbrelli.
78: Sagan, Degenkolb, Ganna, Å tybar, Benoot, Vanmarcke. |
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| TheGameOfGame |
Posted on 18-04-2022 05:44
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Amateur
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Yes, this hierarchy is Good, i Just add Madouas & Fred Wright 78, Degenkolb Teuns and Turner 77, Girmay Petit for IWG 77, Sénéchal Turgis 79, Devriendt Pichon Meeus and NVH Louvel 76 cobbles.. |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 22-05-2022 06:05
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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SP/ACC
Jakobsen 82/82
Cavendish 81/81
Ewan 81/80
Bennett 81/79
Demare 81/79
Merlier 80/80
Gaviria 80/80
Ackermann 80/79
Groenewegen 80/79
Bol 79/80
Viviani 79/79
Philipsen 79/79
Nizzolo 79/78
Kristoff 79/78
Pedersen 79/77
WVA 79/77
Dainese 79/77
Sagan 78/79
Bouhanni 78/78
Girmay 78/77
Coquard 78/77
MVDP 77/83
Colbrelli 77/78
Matthews 77/77
Cort 77/77
Edited by Arberg on 29-05-2022 14:49
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 22-05-2022 07:43
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
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There is no need to delete your old posts Arberg when creating a new one. You can admit that assessments change, it's more interesting to see the developments.
Then, while I appreciate you contributing, I sometimes get the feeling that you suggest stats for riders without watching them ride and just look at the results. I got that feeling especially looking at the sprint/acc distribution of Coquard and Bol. While one is a power sprinter that more often than not needs a good leadout to be in position to take a long one, one other is more of a speedy sprinter that is quicker to kick but doesn't have the necessary top speed. Your stat distribution looks like it's the other way round.
Also such rankings would be much better if contextualized. Remember that the Giro sprint stats now are heavily influenced by a) a weak field that is left b) GFC being the most dedicated and the strongest left in the leadout and c) recovery playing a big role. It is important to account for secondary stats in such "bigger picture"-tables, as those will make riders feel far stronger (Do It f.e.) while others will feel much weaker (Mareczjo f.e.) in game than their pure sprint and acc in the an will suggest.
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 29-05-2022 10:08
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Protected Rider
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In my opinion:
84 Pogacar
82 Roglic
81 Bernal, Vingegaard, Hindley, Carapaz, Simon Yates, Pinot, Superman Lopez
80 Adam Yates, Landa, Bardet, Carthy, Kuss, Enric Mas, Bilbao
79 Almeida, D. F. Martinez, Urán, Nairo Quintana, Porte, Nibali, |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-05-2022 12:35
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Interesting that some think that Pogacar should be 84 mtn. remember in the last update we increased his backups and he has 80 res which is unheard for a GT rider. Froome at his best I think had about 75 res and even riders like Dumoulin and Thomas were 78 and 77 res but they of course had much lower mtn.
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| King_Ric |
Posted on 31-05-2022 22:40
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Junior Rider
Posts: 44
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AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion:
84 Pogacar
82 Roglic
81 Bernal, Vingegaard, Hindley, Carapaz, Simon Yates, Pinot, Superman Lopez
80 Adam Yates, Landa, Bardet, Carthy, Kuss, Enric Mas, Bilbao
79 Almeida, D. F. Martinez, Urán, Nairo Quintana, Porte, Nibali,
Overall I disagree with a lot of this. Pogacar shouldn't be 84 as he already has super backups. Pinot hasn't shown 81 MO level since TDF 2019 and after 3 years I think it's time he goes down. I would as far as saying he is closer to 79 than 81, as much as I like him. Bilbao isn't at the level of the other 80 riders and is even weaker than some of the 79 ones. Martinez seems to be one of the better climbers right now and should be at the very least 80. Almeida has given contradictory signs and 79 can be acceptable with some reluctance but Nibali can't be 79 has Almeida shown he was levels above him in Giro even while sick.
Now the biggest disagreement is that every rider equal to or under 81 should be up by one. My reasoning for this is that with his amazing backup stats and flat Roglic is already way above everyone with the same MO as him, as I've tested countless times myself. As you suggested, the discrepancies are too big, and Pogacar would destroy everyone in a GT with differences above 10 minutes by the end which doesn't happen in reality.
A separate suggestion is that Roglic should have a lower BAR stat as he is more of a "drag it until last km" type of rider than an offensive one. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 04-06-2022 10:18
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Some responses to above comments:
Given that Pogacar and Roglic are so overpowered, we will be doing testing prior to the PCM22 release of the database. We certainly are aware that certain riders on 80 and 81 mtn may need to be upped by a point to try and compete with Rog and Pog because we don't want Roglic and Pogacar winning every GT by unrealistic amounts of minutes..
In our opinion Martinez is the best GT man at Ineos this season which is why he'll be their leader at the Tour unless of course something changes and in our opinion worthy of 81 mtn. Also the Giro had a very weak climbing field as evidenced by a veteran like Nibali doing well, who at most is a 78 climber. Pinot also is certainly on his way down and probably an 80 at most unless he performs some kind of miracle. Bilbao is an odd one and another who is a 78/79 climber but probably nearer 78 due to his good backups especially rec. Almeida is the classic 79 climber who has good backups and excellent TT, interesting to see how well he would've done at the Giro had he not got sick.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 04-06-2022 10:42
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World Champion
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To be fair, Roglic and Pogacar easily won each GT they started in for the last two years. Bernal could be a challenge, but how good will he still be when he returns? I don't see anyone else challenging them. Martinez still has everything to prove in a 3 week stage race.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 04-06-2022 13:01
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
To be fair, Roglic and Pogacar easily won each GT they started in for the last two years. Bernal could be a challenge, but how good will he still be when he returns? I don't see anyone else challenging them. Martinez still has everything to prove in a 3 week stage race.
Last year Pogacar and Roglic won their GT's by 5 mins and 4 mins margins but the previous year was very tight. For example at La Vuelta two years ago Roglic only beat Carapaz by 24 seconds. The winning of GT's by 4 and 5 minutes is not the issue but if the advantage becomes any bigger than that then I think it's an issue.
I'd say Martinez has proven himself over a 3 week GT. At last year's Giro despite slaving away for Bernal he still managed to finish in 5th spot and looked super stong for the whole three weeks. Admittedly we don't know how he'll do though as team leader but in a few weeks we will. Also as indicators of form this season he has been a podium rider at Algarve, Paris-Nice and Basque and on great form at the Ardennes classics as well.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 06-06-2022 17:14
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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What about MVDP mountain stat?
He deserves huge upgrade, something like 72/73 (not more just because will perform better thanks to high RES) |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 06-06-2022 21:42
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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marcoplv95 wrote:
What about MVDP mountain stat?
He deserves huge upgrade, something like 72/73 (not more just because will perform better thanks to high RES)
I'd be careful raising him above even 70 mtn and that is not just because of his crazy high res but he will also save a lot of energy on flat and hilly terrain before the mtns and even has very high downhill as well.
I remember before when we had Sagan at around 72 mtn and he did crazy things and his res and hill stats were not to the level of VDP either. After that we decided to keep these really powerful riders nearer 70 and below to stop them doing unrealistic things.
But if anybody has VDP on a higher mtn would be interested in hearing how he performs?
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