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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| bob7 |
Posted on 04-07-2021 20:17
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Maybe still 83 MO for Pogacar but upgrade his another stats like TT (77, maybe even 78), ACC 77 and RES 77? Or something similar. |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 04-07-2021 20:22
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg wrote:
MO
85- Pogacar.
83- Roglic, Bernal.
82- Landa, Carapaz, Lopez
81- Porte, S.Yates, Kuss, Vingegaard, Mas
Aren't you tired of all this trolling?  |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 04-07-2021 21:35
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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As Olifardh said 84 is not easy to give out and we should be careful doing it. As Bob has said might be best to concentrate more on his TT stat, As amazing as Pogacar is let's look at the facts. Roglic effectively crashed out, Carapaz wasted a whole load of energy before the mtns and the other favs such as Thomas, Yates, Lopez and Porte may as well not bothered to turn up, as we know they can all ride far better than they have shown. It's only mr inconsistent Uran that is more or less there amongst the big riders and may well be the best placed to do something. Whilst riders like Mas and Kelderman are solid 80/79 riders only.
Pogacar might be amazing and if he wins this Tour and doesn't crash etc the podium behind him will just consist of surprise riders and GT riders that have been so badly prepared it seems for the Tour.
With all this in mind I'd keep Pogacar 83 and assume he's like a +5 for the race.
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| Ho0liGaN |
Posted on 05-07-2021 00:42
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Junior Rider
Posts: 42
Joined: 30-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Time to hop into the comment section
I've never been shy to dish out high stats where warranted. But as Tafiolmo rightfully pointed out, none of the big contenders are showing up. Out of the 10 Biggest tour riders the past 5 years we have:
- Bernal won the Giro but not here
- Roglic who crashed out
- Kruiswijk who never recovered from covid, he's going the Nibali route considering his age
- Superman who seems to be in horrific form
- Dumoulin basically stopped cycling
- Froome. who?
- Thomas, looked ill prepared at the first stages, and then crashed hard
- Porte, looks like he's in bad form
- Uran is doing uran things
- Carapaz also seems to be where he should be
- Yates brothers decided not to show up for the tour
I might be missing one or two contenders. But really. Before the tour it was only ever going to be Poga vs Rogli. The Ineos Trio certainly weren't far off as main contenders, but 2/3rds of them dont seem to be in top form. While Carapaz is doing what im expecting of him. He's won a Giro vs a decently good field, and Finished behind Roglic in a Vuelta which was a consolidation price for losing the tour. He's very good, just not extremely good.
At this point however, I am willing to give Pogacar near classics like support stats. He's shown enough times to be a main contender for the Hills Classics and similar races. Completely destroying the field in Tirreno, except for a MvdP in that epic stage.
If I was the one deciding on the stats it would look something like this:
Pogacar:
Flat: 75
MTN: 83
TT: 79/80
Hill: 80
STA: 79
RES: 79
REC: 81
His main Rival Roglic would look something like this
Flat: 76
MTN: 81
TT: 78/79
Hill: 81
STA: 79
RES: 79
REC: 78
With a couple other riders at 82 CLI like Bernal/Carapaz/Landa (shame he crashed in the Giro) But they would have the more classic approach to GC stats, with lower STA/RES/HILL. As the season moves on, riders we previously had very close to top of the list (Thomas, Dumoulin, Kruiswijk) they are slowly dropping off as their results simply dont match their stats. They are now a step (or two) below those top GC contenders. Thinning out the top, but fleshing out that pack behind them.
Which is getting very crowded. With Geoghan Hart, Vingegaard, Almeida, Kelderman (evenepoel?) ETC occupying that ~80 MTN stat group which is clearly a step below the top GC guys, but top 5 material on a good day, or GT winners in a weak field.
EDIT:
Im currently re installing PCM 2020 and PCM daily DB from scratch (Im skipping PCM 2021 as it seems to be the same game...)
Once I've got that up and running Ill dive a little deeper into the DB and maybe post a couple screenshots of what my thoughts are on current state of cycling |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 05-07-2021 00:57
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Pogacar
Flat: 75
MTN: 83
TT: 80
Hill: 81
STA: 80
RES: 79
REC: 83
Roglic
Flat: 76
MTN: 82
TT: 77
Hill: 81
STA: 79
RES: 80
REC: 78
Bernal
Flat: 73
MTN: 82
TT: 70
Hill: 78
STA: 77
RES: 77
REC: 80
The 3 bigs. Pogacar scary strong. No challenge without Roglic.
Edited by Arberg on 14-07-2021 16:22
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| Ho0liGaN |
Posted on 05-07-2021 01:41
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Junior Rider
Posts: 42
Joined: 30-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Here are some images of how I've adjusted certain riders from the PCM2021 DB.
As Discussed in the PCM2020 Stat discussion thread, I place little value in HILL stat as its only used in efforts above 85%, Did some minor tweaks to sprinters: Bringing Cav up to 80, and WvA down to 79.
Just go to the link to see the image, couldnt get it to work to show up here (which is probably for the better as it keeps the thread clean)
https://ibb.co/By...
https://ibb.co/Sc...
https://ibb.co/dB...
https://ibb.co/gv... |
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| gargatouf |
Posted on 05-07-2021 07:26
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 320
Joined: 28-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Yeah, I think his Mountain stat should stay at 83 but his back up stat go up (I don’t know where they are, but they might have to go to some sort of Van Aert/VdP level if they already aren’t there. His ACC might have to go up as well. His attacks over the last couple of stages have been quite impressive, pulling clear of everyone in a very short space of time). I would imagine anyway that fairly quickly in a career, his MO stat will go up to 84 or 85.
I can understand why you would want to bring it up to as high as possible though. Even though Roglic and Thomas have crashed, he still managed to put 4 minutes on Carapaz on stage 8 and riders like Mas, Gaudu and Uran (all riders that arguably deserve 80 or so in MO stats). Whatever you think is behind these performances, these are time gaps we haven’t seen in a long time. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-07-2021 17:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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We are actually thinking anyway to build both Pogacar and Roglic more along a classic rider's lines. Both are kind of atypical GT riders but in different ways. Pogacar is like a 'Super Armstrong' but can win classics as well as GT's and the trick here is to make him special and still keep him at 83 mtn. Roglic as we all know is great at short and medium mtns but not a great GT rider over longer climbs and the idea of dropping his mtn in line with his hill could be good and really increasing his backups like WVA/VDP rider. We've kind of done this thing in the past with riders like Thomas and Dumoulin but they were really never much more than 80 mtn and had weaker aspects like their acc etc. If we do this with both Pogacar and Roglic it will be like creating 'super soldiers'
Edited by Tafiolmo on 05-07-2021 17:17
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-07-2021 17:15
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Hooligan- Great lists that are always useful. Would be good if you could put up your leading sprinters list as well, as this is the hardest stat to do.
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| Arberg |
Posted on 05-07-2021 19:22
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Roglic as we all know is great at short and medium mtns but not a great GT rider over longer climbs https://youtu.be/jQ7fTs1kjiU |
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| King_Ric |
Posted on 05-07-2021 20:51
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Junior Rider
Posts: 44
Joined: 03-07-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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Good job by Hooligan but I think I would rate Gaudu's MO slightly higher.
Also how should Yates brothers be rated like? Sometimes they look like they are as good climbers as Lopez, Landa, etc, and way above Carthy, Mas, etc, but then they suddenly drop to Esteban Chávez type of rider or even worse. Is the 82 viable for them? Should their REC resemble Pinot's? What do y'all think?
EDIT: Yeah Cattaneo should have an all-around upgrade. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 08:19
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-07-2021 21:30
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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King_Ric wrote:
Good job by Hooligan but I think I would rate Gaudu's MO slightly higher.
Also how should Yates brothers be rated like? Sometimes they look like they are as good climbers as Lopez, Landa, etc, and way above Carthy, Mas, etc, but then they suddenly drop to Esteban Chávez type of rider or even worse. Is the 82 viable for them? Should their REC resemble Pinot's? What do y'all think?
EDIT: Yeah Cattaneo should have an all-around upgrade.
The big difference is at least one of the Yates brothers has won a GT and they are early 70's in rec which I find you can still just win a GT with. Simon seems to be the more aggressive of the two and stated like so. Adam is more difficult and not sure if he will just be a super dom or given leadership at La Vuelta and we'll have more idea then. yes they are inconsistent but I don't think they are near the calamity level of Pinot though.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 05-07-2021 21:34
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| jakobm8 |
Posted on 05-07-2021 21:33
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Under 23
Posts: 83
Joined: 22-06-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Is there any way to slow down the evolution of stats in your db? I remember there was an option in earlier versions of the game, but I cant find it ingame. Should be possible with an editor? |
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| Ho0liGaN |
Posted on 06-07-2021 14:12
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Junior Rider
Posts: 42
Joined: 30-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Hooligan- Great lists that are always useful. Would be good if you could put up your leading sprinters list as well, as this is the hardest stat to do.
Sprinting is really difficult these days. With a lot of the worlds best not racing each other due to several reasons (covid, injuries, etc etc). But this tour we only had Demare and Ewan as established GT top sprinters. With guys like merlier and Philipsen just behind them (simply because they lack GT starts)
Groenewegen is coming back from injury
Bennett is "injured"
Can't remember the last time I saw Ackermann race
Jakobsen is only now coming back from his horrific crash.
If you were to ask me who the top 10 sprinters in the world are, these 4 would make the list easily. Sprinters these days are also more prone to coming up really fast, but also dropping off really fast. It's only been a few years since we had Kittel being the absolute undisputed world number 1. In just a few seasons he stopped riding altogether.
Gone are the days that you could say "Ah yeah sprinters, easy. Pettachi, Zabel, Cippolini, Freire, McEwan. I really couldn't tell you who the fastest/most consistent sprinter is over these last 3 years.
But, i'll try and make a list based on what I think if we let these guys sprint in their top form and based on their consistency from the last 3 years. And as always, I'll take 83 as top performer stat. Note: the actual stat does not simply mean I think 1 guy is faster then an other, it's also one of the only ways to show consistency. Note 2: The actual stat in game is less important than like RDY or CLI since it's only active for something like 3-5KM each race. Note 3: You could peg down my numbers 1 and 2 to 82 but I do feel that they, in their best form are in fact the fastest.
Edit: If you would like these results to be a bit more recency biased. Peg down Groenewegen, Ackermann, Jakobsen by one. And Up Van Aert and Cavendish by one.
https://ibb.co/QP...
https://ibb.co/df...
Edited by Ho0liGaN on 06-07-2021 14:19
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| Ho0liGaN |
Posted on 06-07-2021 15:26
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Junior Rider
Posts: 42
Joined: 30-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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jakobm8 wrote:
Is there any way to slow down the evolution of stats in your db? I remember there was an option in earlier versions of the game, but I cant find it ingame. Should be possible with an editor?
Using PCM Fast Editor you can change the values for Cyclist Progression:
Its under STA_cyclist_progression It has 5 settings, from very slow to very fast.
You can alter these values, but im not 100% what the result will be in game. if you want slower progression I would advice the following:
Very slow is currenty: 0,699999988079071 keep it like that
Slow is currently : 0,85000002384185791 change it to very slow value
Medium is currently: 1 change it to what slow was 0,85000002384185791
Fast is currently: 1,1499999761581421 change it to 1
Very fast is :1,2999999523162842 change it to 1,1499999761581421
That way you at least use the same values as the game is used to |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2021 17:46
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Hooligan- Thanks for the insights into sprinting and agree that Bennett and Ewan should be the sprinting elite with riders like Groenewegen being up there till we at least see if he returns to his previous best.
Also any lingering doubts about increasing Pogacar to 84 may have been crushed today.
Two riders I'd like opinions on are both Lutsenko and Van Aert and what type of climbing stats they should have, as ideas on them can vary, bear in mind they have very high res so not a great idea to give too high climbing stats?
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 07-07-2021 18:10
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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WVA is doing what he did last year, but as an attacker instead of domestique for Roglic, so no change needed there imo. Lutsenko, let's see where this goes I think.
All in all, I think this Tour field is just very weak at the moment due to crashes and injuries, both for sprinters and stage racers.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2021 19:27
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
WVA is doing what he did last year, but as an attacker instead of domestique for Roglic, so no change needed there imo. Lutsenko, let's see where this goes I think.
All in all, I think this Tour field is just very weak at the moment due to crashes and injuries, both for sprinters and stage racers.
I agree and WVA this year is now just riding as an attacker whilst Lutsenko for GC. At the moment I'm inclined to give a mtn pt more to Lutsenko over WVA, bearing in mind Lutsenko has poor rec but as you state we need more time for both especially with Lutsenko.
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| King_Ric |
Posted on 07-07-2021 19:49
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Junior Rider
Posts: 44
Joined: 03-07-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
I agree and WVA this year is now just riding as an attacker whilst Lutsenko for GC. At the moment I'm inclined to give a mtn pt more to Lutsenko over WVA, bearing in mind Lutsenko has poor rec but as you state we need more time for both especially with Lutsenko.
Agreed for now atleast. |
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| Aurora Australis |
Posted on 09-07-2021 20:20
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Amateur
Posts: 2
Joined: 03-07-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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I wonder whether people are being too shortsighted of who they claim should have god-like stats. 2019 it was Bernal who is the next god of cycling. Both 2019 & 2020 Roglic was the number 1 cyclist in the world. Cavendish has been missing for what, 5 years, to claim that he's the best in the world after a few TdF stage wins is extraordinary, he's merely in top form with a few lucky +form bonuses, like being +4 & +5 in the game whilst others are -1 or -2 or missing.
And on Yates, it's clear there needs to be better consideration of weather. Yates clearly can't handle poor weather, that's why he's lost, plus previously by stupid demands he should be super-aggressive eating up energy (like having bad tactics in the game). |
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