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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 05-04-2021 11:00
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Arberg wrote:
Cobbles:
83: Asgreen
82: Van der Poel, Van Aert
80: Vanmarcke, Van Avermaet
79: Turgis, Sagan, Kristoff, Stuyven
78: Alaphilippe, Pidcock, Wellens, Laporte, Haller, Benoot
77: Matthews, Pedersen, Lampaert
Asgreen has much less in hills than Van Aert and especially Van der Poel, so he will have to have more in cobble.
Agree ?
No.
I would actually improve Asgreen in back up stats because he just can keep going no matter what. It's hard to judge pure cobble stat without 2 years of Roubaix. I'd definitely not put him alone as the highest stat.
Lower than that I think the gaps are too big, just because the big 2 have great allround stats.
Then there's some pure nonsense like half the people higher than Lampaert.
Also shame on you for forgetting Stybar, he was one of the best cobblers this year.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 11:45
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Agree with Olifardh, Asgreen is not near being the best cobbler and his real strength is in his awesome strength with his flat and backups like RES and STA. Of course he needs to have a high cobble stat so that needs to be balanced in but I would say in just the cobble stat both VDP and WVA are better along with both GVA and Vanmarcke possibly being better too. Had the race been shorter I have no doubt that VDP would've won from that position.
Also when statting QS in cobble stats it's not so easy, as they usually have no clear leader and Asgreen, Senechal, Stybar and Lampaert all need to be similar and around the 80 cobble mark with back-ups adjusted to give one the edge in hills, flat, sprint and res etc to somewhat make it hard for the AI when it comes to make a leader. Also 77 cobble is way to low for Lampaert in cobble and is at least an 80. Stybar again 80 on cobbles but doesn't do so well on longer races. QS control the tactics for these races but sometimes they backfire and we don't get to see just how good on cobbles some of their riders can be as they are simply following strong team tactics
We really just have half the story for the cobble stats without Roubaix as well. But one thing for certain is that both VDP and WVA have an achilles heel each. VDP may well be the most explosive rider but he is suspect now over longer races despite winning both Amstel and Flanders because he has the capability of just blowing up when not expected. He's somewhat like Roglic in longer mtn stages where there is always the possibility of a blow-up despite being the best rider overall. VDP almost blew up following Asgreen over the top of the Paterburg and sprinted at the end like a PCM rider with no energy left.  this is a clear sta problem and not a cobble one. WVA despite being strong in nearly everything has very poor acc in these races and just can't follow attacks by riders like VDP and Alaphilippe and has to grind them back slowly but we can't lower his acc too much as he's one of the best sprinters in the peloton as well, so there's a contradiction there.
Alaphilippe I'd keep at 76 cobble but had he repeated his form from last year until he crashed out then he probably would've gone higher. Also having a rider like Pidcock at 78 cobble is pure craziness and Wellens at best is more like a 74 cobble rider
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| andrew7taylor |
Posted on 05-04-2021 13:21
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Free Agent
Posts: 130
Joined: 20-04-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Agree with Olifardh, Asgreen is not near being the best cobbler and his real strength is in his awesome strength with his flat and backups like RES and STA. Of course he needs to have a high cobble stat so that needs to be balanced in but I would say in just the cobble stat both VDP and WVA are better along with both GVA and Vanmarcke possibly being better too. Had the race been shorter I have no doubt that VDP would've won from that position.
Also when statting QS in cobble stats it's not so easy, as they usually have no clear leader and Asgreen, Senechal, Stybar and Lampaert all need to be similar and around the 80 cobble mark with back-ups adjusted to give one the edge in hills, flat, sprint and res etc to somewhat make it hard for the AI when it comes to make a leader. Also 77 cobble is way to low for Lampaert in cobble and is at least an 80. Stybar again 80 on cobbles but doesn't do so well on longer races. QS control the tactics for these races but sometimes they backfire and we don't get to see just how good on cobbles some of their riders can be as they are simply following strong team tactics
We really just have half the story for the cobble stats without Roubaix as well. But one thing for certain is that both VDP and WVA have an achilles heel each. VDP may well be the most explosive rider but he is suspect now over longer races despite winning both Amstel and Flanders because he has the capability of just blowing up when not expected. He's somewhat like Roglic in longer mtn stages where there is always the possibility of a blow-up despite being the best rider overall. VDP almost blew up following Asgreen over the top of the Paterburg and sprinted at the end like a PCM rider with no energy left. this is a clear sta problem and not a cobble one. WVA despite being strong in nearly everything has very poor acc in these races and just can't follow attacks by riders like VDP and Alaphilippe and has to grind them back slowly but we can't lower his acc too much as he's one of the best sprinters in the peloton as well, so there's a contradiction there.
Alaphilippe I'd keep at 76 cobble but had he repeated his form from last year until he crashed out then he probably would've gone higher. Also having a rider like Pidcock at 78 cobble is pure craziness and Wellens at best is more like a 74 cobble rider
I agree with you. The "stats" above are pure overreactions to a single race without considering anything else like other stats, tactics, form, fitness, etc.
Regarding van Aert I've got him at 77-78 acc and 78 sprint and van der Poel at 80 acc and 76 sprint. Van der Poel is obviously more explosive, but they're both world class. Sprinting is close enough that it could go either way 1 vs 1, but against a whole field of pure sprinters only van Aert should try to win.
I don't think van der Poel has a stamina problem. He is definitely one of the strongest riders on the planet, as his palmares proves. As you pointed out, he has already won some of the longest and hardest races on the calendar when he used his strength wisely.
You had a good analogy. He's a PCM rider. A lot of the times he doesn't race with smarts and blows too much energy on stupid stuff. Like being in the wind at the Capi, but having to react from 20th wheel on the Poggio. Attacking time and time again even with many domestiques in the peloton or other favourites on his wheel. He has more energy than almost anyone, but he doesn't use it as smartly as someone like Asgreen does. That's partly maybe why he's not a good time trialist but Asgreen is.
Edited by andrew7taylor on 05-04-2021 13:35
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| cio93 |
Posted on 05-04-2021 13:31
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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I'm surprised that Arberg still gets this much attention for his suggestions after all these years.
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| Arberg |
Posted on 05-04-2021 13:37
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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82: Van der Poel, Van Aert, Asgreen
81: Vanmarcke, Van Avermaet, Stybar
80: Sagan, Kristoff, Stuyven, Lampaert |
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| Hoegsberg22 |
Posted on 05-04-2021 14:30
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Amateur
Posts: 4
Joined: 07-08-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Is it possible to see the latest stats in a Google Sheets link, or maybe just download the .cdb without the complete expansion pack? Can't seem to find it |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 14:43
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Andrew Taylor: You are correct about VDP but lowering his STA a bit might be the only way to demonstrate his ability to go hot and cold at important times in big races. He's at 79 sta which is not a bad sta anyway and at the high end but he's not one of the really big STA men like Asgreen and Pedersen for example but on the other hand not too far behind them and they both have 83 sta so it could be a case of decreasing this gap as an idea and having him say closer to WVA who is 81. I think after this season irl he will probably wise up and learn from these mistakes and race smarter in the future as he was expected to win a monument this spring but hasn't. He is also the perfect PCM rider that starts crazy attacks from anywhere and when they don't work he just runs out of energy and hopefully we can keep this
Hoegsberg As far as I know that sheet doesn't work anymore but we are very advanced with the current DB and so all will be revealed soon. As always we can't give any dates of release but we are close.
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| Hoegsberg22 |
Posted on 05-04-2021 14:48
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Amateur
Posts: 4
Joined: 07-08-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Hoegsberg As far as I know that sheet doesn't work anymore but we are very advanced with the current DB and so all will be revealed soon. As always we can't give any dates of release but we are close.
Thanks. Where can I find the latest released db? Only the db, not the complete EP |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 12:38
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 14:56
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Hoegsberg22 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Hoegsberg As far as I know that sheet doesn't work anymore but we are very advanced with the current DB and so all will be revealed soon. As always we can't give any dates of release but we are close.
Thanks. Where can I find the latest released db? Only the db, not the complete EP
That would be the final DB release for the 2020 season but if you want the current 2021 season the EP for that is being worked on at the moment.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 14:57
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Also out of interest how would members rank the following QS riders in cobble from best to worst: Stybar, Lampaert, Asgreen, Senechal
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 05-04-2021 15:19
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Also out of interest how would members rank the following QS riders in cobble from best to worst: Stybar, Lampaert, Asgreen, Senechal
If it comes down to pure cobble skill:
Stybar-Lampaert-Asgreen-Senechal, with all being really close. And as said above, it's really hard to call with no Roubaix for 2 years.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 05-04-2021 15:25
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Junior Rider
Posts: 39
Joined: 27-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Also out of interest how would members rank the following QS riders in cobble from best to worst: Stybar, Lampaert, Asgreen, Senechal
in my very subjective opinion its Stybar 81, Lampaert 80 and Senechal/Asgreen 79
Asgreen could be warranted an 80 but depends on his supporting stats, while Senechal is defo the best sprinter out of this lot. But asyou guys said, we didnt have roubaix now for two years so its very difficult to judge the pure cobble ability as guys like Politt, Haller or even Sagan nowadays are much more suited to roubaix then the flemish classics |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 19:57
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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It seems that based on two opinions it's Stybar followed by Lampaert and then Asgreen /Senechal or Senechal/Asgreen
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 05-04-2021 20:10
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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The next stats update release will be focused in any stat or will be generic?
1) Pedersen and Kung with 81AVG might need some stats lowered? I don't see them in Top5 riders
2) Andrea Bagioli has wrong picture.
Ps. I still see "Cya World Tour" (not UCI World Tour) after installing DB, did I miss copying any file?
Edited by marcoplv95 on 05-04-2021 20:32
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 20:28
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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marcoplv95 wrote:
The next stats update release will be focused in any stat or will be generic?
1) Pedersen and Kung with 81AVG might need some stats lowered? I don't see them in Top5 riders...
2) Andrea Bagioli has wrong picture.
Ps. I still see "Cya World Tour" (not UCI World Tour) after installing DB, did I miss copying any file?
Not sure by what you mean focused or generic but the stats will be done the same as always.
Pedersen and Kung can't really be fixed. For example Pedersen is at elite level in STA and REC but certainly not a top 5 in anything else BUT he's still a top rider without any weaknesses and deserves to be a late 70's early 80's rider and has no weaknesses. Whereas somebody like VDP who might have higher stats overall but loses a lot of average points due to his low mtn and rec stats. Dropping riders like Pedersen and Kung a few points here or there is not really going to help much because to really get an average down you need to reduce quite a bit in a stat and not the odd point here or there.
Thanks for the info about Bagioli
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 05-04-2021 20:40
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
The next stats update release will be focused in any stat or will be generic?
1) Pedersen and Kung with 81AVG might need some stats lowered? I don't see them in Top5 riders...
2) Andrea Bagioli has wrong picture.
Ps. I still see "Cya World Tour" (not UCI World Tour) after installing DB, did I miss copying any file?
Not sure by what you mean focused or generic but the stats will be done the same as always.
Pedersen and Kung can't really be fixed. For example Pedersen is at elite level in STA and REC but certainly not a top 5 in anything else BUT he's still a top rider without any weaknesses and deserves to be a late 70's early 80's rider and has no weaknesses. Whereas somebody like VDP who might have higher stats overall but loses a lot of average points due to his low mtn and rec stats. Dropping riders like Pedersen and Kung a few points here or there is not really going to help much because to really get an average down you need to reduce quite a bit in a stat and not the odd point here or there.
Thanks for the info about Bagioli
I mean if the upcoming update will revisit the values in COB based on latest races or in every stats.
I can guess the update on them (which are great riders) has been done after the WC, but how could they be rated so much better than Trentin? Even before the race, every odds would have been on Trentin if any between those three.
Anyways I'd suggest to lower every stats, there are too many cyclists with high stats, I don't know if anyone like me likes to play with custom teams in career, it's hard to go for a UWT and pick popular riders if they all cost that much.
Do you remember when there was 5 cyclists 80+ in MON? Now they are 21 (just as example, same can be said for the other stats)
I know it would require a lot of work, maybe if you agree it could be planned for next year DB. |
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| -Alex- |
Posted on 05-04-2021 20:58
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Under 23
Posts: 81
Joined: 22-08-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Also out of interest how would members rank the following QS riders in cobble from best to worst: Stybar, Lampaert, Asgreen, Senechal
For me : Stybar 80, Asgreen 79 or 80, Lampaert 79, Senechal 78. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 21:04
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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marcoplv95 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
The next stats update release will be focused in any stat or will be generic?
1) Pedersen and Kung with 81AVG might need some stats lowered? I don't see them in Top5 riders...
2) Andrea Bagioli has wrong picture.
Ps. I still see "Cya World Tour" (not UCI World Tour) after installing DB, did I miss copying any file?
Not sure by what you mean focused or generic but the stats will be done the same as always.
Pedersen and Kung can't really be fixed. For example Pedersen is at elite level in STA and REC but certainly not a top 5 in anything else BUT he's still a top rider without any weaknesses and deserves to be a late 70's early 80's rider and has no weaknesses. Whereas somebody like VDP who might have higher stats overall but loses a lot of average points due to his low mtn and rec stats. Dropping riders like Pedersen and Kung a few points here or there is not really going to help much because to really get an average down you need to reduce quite a bit in a stat and not the odd point here or there.
Thanks for the info about Bagioli
I mean if the upcoming update will revisit the values in COB based on latest races or in every stats.
I can guess the update on them (which are great riders) has been done after the WC, but how could they be rated so much better than Trentin? Even before the race, every odds would have been on Trentin if any between those three.
Anyways I'd suggest to lower every stats, there are too many cyclists with high stats, I don't know if anyone like me likes to play with custom teams in career, it's hard to go for a UWT and pick popular riders if they all cost that much.
Do you remember when there was 5 cyclists 80+ in MON? Now they are 21 (just as example, same can be said for the other stats)
I know it would require a lot of work, maybe if you agree it could be planned for next year DB.
All stats for WT riders and most PCT riders have been done now including Flanders in all races so far this season, so all stats have been updated for all races.
That WC with Trentin was sometime ago now and since then both Pedersen and Kung have got better whereas Trentin is at the same level but all must be about the same in averages.
There has been a general trend in this DB and some others that I know of to gradually widen the stats over the years. It's not really a question of whether there are 5 or 20 riders with 80 mtn or over but how the mtn stats work with the other 12 stats in game to highlight a rider's strengths and weaknesses. More than ever there are younger riders performing better than ever and even now I try to give them lower stats or high stats with low back-ups but in just a few races though they are improving so quickly irl. For example Fabbro not that long ago was an early 70's climber and now for this DB release will be 77 mtn with low back-ups due to good results and there are many other riders like him as well and as far as I can see he deserves 77 mtn.
Changing the matrix to higher or lower levels is a big job and really shouldn't be done unless results are coming out very incorrectly and then it's aquestion of whether it's a problem with the DB stats or the game AI.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 05-04-2021 21:10
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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-Alex- wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Also out of interest how would members rank the following QS riders in cobble from best to worst: Stybar, Lampaert, Asgreen, Senechal
For me : Stybar 80, Asgreen 79 or 80, Lampaert 79, Senechal 78.
Bear in mind that Lampaert finished 3rd in the last PR and had the form to even win it that year.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 06-04-2021 00:04
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
The next stats update release will be focused in any stat or will be generic?
1) Pedersen and Kung with 81AVG might need some stats lowered? I don't see them in Top5 riders...
2) Andrea Bagioli has wrong picture.
Ps. I still see "Cya World Tour" (not UCI World Tour) after installing DB, did I miss copying any file?
Not sure by what you mean focused or generic but the stats will be done the same as always.
Pedersen and Kung can't really be fixed. For example Pedersen is at elite level in STA and REC but certainly not a top 5 in anything else BUT he's still a top rider without any weaknesses and deserves to be a late 70's early 80's rider and has no weaknesses. Whereas somebody like VDP who might have higher stats overall but loses a lot of average points due to his low mtn and rec stats. Dropping riders like Pedersen and Kung a few points here or there is not really going to help much because to really get an average down you need to reduce quite a bit in a stat and not the odd point here or there.
Thanks for the info about Bagioli
I mean if the upcoming update will revisit the values in COB based on latest races or in every stats.
I can guess the update on them (which are great riders) has been done after the WC, but how could they be rated so much better than Trentin? Even before the race, every odds would have been on Trentin if any between those three.
Anyways I'd suggest to lower every stats, there are too many cyclists with high stats, I don't know if anyone like me likes to play with custom teams in career, it's hard to go for a UWT and pick popular riders if they all cost that much.
Do you remember when there was 5 cyclists 80+ in MON? Now they are 21 (just as example, same can be said for the other stats)
I know it would require a lot of work, maybe if you agree it could be planned for next year DB.
All stats for WT riders and most PCT riders have been done now including Flanders in all races so far this season, so all stats have been updated for all races.
That WC with Trentin was sometime ago now and since then both Pedersen and Kung have got better whereas Trentin is at the same level but all must be about the same in averages.
There has been a general trend in this DB and some others that I know of to gradually widen the stats over the years. It's not really a question of whether there are 5 or 20 riders with 80 mtn or over but how the mtn stats work with the other 12 stats in game to highlight a rider's strengths and weaknesses. More than ever there are younger riders performing better than ever and even now I try to give them lower stats or high stats with low back-ups but in just a few races though they are improving so quickly irl. For example Fabbro not that long ago was an early 70's climber and now for this DB release will be 77 mtn with low back-ups due to good results and there are many other riders like him as well and as far as I can see he deserves 77 mtn.
Changing the matrix to higher or lower levels is a big job and really shouldn't be done unless results are coming out very incorrectly and then it's aquestion of whether it's a problem with the DB stats or the game AI.
It's easier to get better when you're an average rider, Trentin prime is better than both, overall, in my opinion, and nowadays they're kinda same level.
However I think you didn't get what's my point...you can spread gaps and weaknesses by lowering ALL stats.
For example: 83->81, 82->80 ... 76->74, 75->74 (and lower some other backups to balance), 74->73 ... 68->67.
And to highlight weaknesses and strenghts, spread the values (ex. a sprinter good in MTN will have 68 MTN instead of 71). It will result in even lower AVGs, that now sees too many good riders IRL with extremely high salary in-game
I'm only making examples, with these and a lot of work I guess (maybe for next year like I said), it could work and resolve the problem.
Just giving my opinion and triying to explain it better, if you disagree I can understand. Problem isn't with results but with career mode. Fabbro with 75MTN would perform like a 77MTN when also the other MTN values are lowered, but all salaries would be lowered. Last time I played PCM was 2018 with your DB and stats have become too high in my honest opinion  Salaries have become unreal, which is a problem you will never see in race results but...aren't you trying to improve Cyanide's DB (and always have successfully)?
By the way, is there still a google sheet file with latest values so that I can give my suggestions based on them?
Edited by marcoplv95 on 06-04-2021 00:14
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