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The Puerto Case
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| ruben |
Posted on 28-11-2006 22:56
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The UCI has forbidden any national cycling federation to use the Puerto documents against riders now. This means all riders named in the Puerto case can now not be suspended and will be able to ride the coming season.
What do you guys think of it?
I personally don't really think it'll make a difference anyway, the performance enhancement doping gives you is, in my opinion, fairly exaggerated, certainly if you know guys like Gaumont and Lotz used doping, and still where only average riders. Doping doesn't create superhumans. Talent/Physical ability is still by far the largest factor. Doping probably only makes the difference between winning and getting 2nd, not more, not less. So, let them come, the more top riders the better if you ask me. |
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| alex153 |
Posted on 29-11-2006 05:59
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I will never approve of riders using doping, but in one way I don't care anymore. I just want to see good races.
2 swedish cycling silver in the olympicsB)
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-11-2006 08:58
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Doping didn't change your abilities too much before EPO and Growing Hormon, but since those appeared, it could change a donkey into a racing horse. Bjarne Riis, who was a random bottles carrier, but managed to win the TDF in his 30's is the most blatant example.
Something else : the random factor is less important in a stage races, when in a one day race you can be weaker but smarter and you'll still win, it's much tougher in a (long) stages race, because without EPO you're much more tired.
Saying that doping doesn't have influence on your performances is a dopehead argument, IMO.  Even if, of course, even if I doped myself heavily I'd still never beat clean professional riders.
And I don't agree with "the more top riders the better" statement either. Those you miss are top riders because they were stronger and won more races, but had they been absent you'd have had other winners and thus called other riders "top riders" (and those would be potentially clean), and the races would have been as interesting.
No mercy for cheaters. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 10:49
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No I don't agree EPO makes somebody a superhuman. A Dutch specialist said that EPO and even ARANESP doesn't increase your performance more than 2%...
which is logical, otherwise Lotz would've won the Tour by now according to your logic |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 02:28
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| Ikkuh |
Posted on 29-11-2006 11:41
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Ofcourse EPO makes a (big) difference, why else would riders use it? |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 11:52
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Ikkuh wrote:
Ofcourse EPO makes a (big) difference, why else would riders use it? It is a fable tale...it has been proven now EPO does NOT make a big difference, so why be so stubborn?
The riders/teams who use epo are being scammed by so called wonderdokters who claim EPO makes a huge difference. But, it doesn't..it's proven, so. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-11-2006 12:42
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You're wrong, and I claim your study is wrong too. It's more like 10 or 15%, which is the difference between a Grand Tour top 30 rider and a GT podium rider. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 12:46
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We disagree then. And I'm certain I'm not wrong |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-11-2006 12:54
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So am I... I googled for it a bit, and with standard EPO (not dynEPO or EPOrh or whatever super-epo...) those two sites (French language inside) give the following values :
10 to 15% : https://www.creaph.../sport.htm
10 to 20% : https://www.voloda...opage5.htm
2% is quite ridiculous. Just think of th real use of EPO : helping people who lack red cells breathing. People suffering of a (blood) cancer, or elderly people. 2% more on a very weak value taking shit loads is peanuts. 10 to 20 is much more realistic with a heavy EPO treatment.
If you want to be sure : just check the wattages of races winners before and after the arrival of Conconni's epo in pelotons.
I stand on my position about the effect of EPO, and either the guy who did that 2% study is a liar, either he is unable to make a study, eiter you didn't read it properly.  |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 13:22
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I think those values are ridicolous....and the fact that they are French increases the ridicolous scale  the Dutch specialist said 2% to 5% at max.. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-11-2006 13:43
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2 to 5% would never have changed Riis into a TDF winner in two years time. Isn't it proof enough ? |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 13:52
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No it isn't "proof" to me. There are more riders who reach their top only at their 30-ties
Think of Erik Dekker who won 3 Tour stages and Clasica San Sebastian in 2000 at the age of 30, where before, he was only an average rider..
Riis was very extremely doped with a hematocrite of over 60, but I was talking about EPO usage till the 50 border...it doesn't do anything |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 29-11-2006 14:08
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Funny thing is that Jesper Skibby, the Danish guy who just has admitted use of EPO, says that doping doesn't have a huge effect. If you've talent and motivation, doping won't make the big difference.
The journalist then asked him:
"Were you doped during that stage which you later won?" (I don't remember which stage)
"Yes", he answered
"Would you've won it if you were not doped?"
"Yes".
If he's right, I don't know. Personally, I think doping makes quite a huge difference. It makes people who usually ends 10th winners. |
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| Stairs |
Posted on 29-11-2006 14:14
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CrueTrue wrote:
Funny thing is that Jesper Skibby, the Danish guy who just has admitted use of EPO, says that doping doesn't have a huge effect. If you've talent and motivation, doping won't make the big difference.
The journalist then asked him:
"Were you doped during that stage which you later won?" (I don't remember which stage)
"Yes", he answered
"Would you've won it if you were not doped?"
"Yes".
If he's right, I don't know. Personally, I think doping makes quite a huge difference. It makes people who usually ends 10th winners.
Tour 2005
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 12.44
10 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 16.04
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 29-11-2006 14:19
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That's what I mean  |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 14:23
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No, then you're still wrong, because they only were 1 and 2 because the numbers 1,2,3,4 and 5 of 2005 weren't there this year...which means they would've been 6th and 7th at most, which means only 2% increase B) |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-11-2006 15:09
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Actually their wattages (mostly Landis and Klöden's) were that crazy that with their 2006 dope they'd have slaughtered the 2004 and 2005 versions of Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich.
But with 2006 dope, Basso and Ullrich might still have been stronger than Klöden and Landis. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 29-11-2006 15:41
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wattage's say nothing aqua. It's generally known that Rubens Bertogliati and Remmert Wielinga have by far the highest wattages in the peloton. Yet, they suck. There's more to cycling than the amount of power you can release.. |
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| cmfos |
Posted on 29-11-2006 16:02
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Hold on folks, I think we're missing something here. The advantages of doping can be debated endlessly but for me the question is whether the riders should be punished by simply being IMPLICATED in the scandal. We are what, 5 or 6 months past the time when Puerto came out and there is no substantive evidence that these guys did anything wrong. What they have are lots of bags of blood, some with high concentrations of EPO and a list of names that might be connected to the bags. But I have not heard any specific allegations (like bag #302 belongs to Jan Ullrich, for example) and it looks like such allegations will not be forthcoming. So should these riders be punished for just being associated with the scandal? Is that the nature of the game now, that all that is needed to take a rider down is to drop his name in connection with physicians who are involved in blood doping?
Frankly, I think it's wrong. If they have nothing substantive on these riders, then they should let them go back to their teams, let them race and issue a big apology to everyone including cycling fans like us. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-11-2006 12:57
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Problem is that there's a 500 pages report that was sent to federations and all legal authorities, and that one is overwhelming for the involved riders (the 53 or 56 names list and a couple of others among them Klaus, ValvPiti, etc.), but the Spanish authorities forbid all those federations to use that report to sue the involved riders for as long as the civil trial is going on in Spain. The civil trial only involves Fuentes, Saiz and a couple of their buddies.
@ Ruben : wattage makes sense when it's linked to weight, you could be twice more powerful than any other cyclist, if you weighed 250 kg, you wouldn't hold on in the peloton in an amateur races. |
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