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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 19:48
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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t think they were referring to Sagan as being one of the all-time greats or will certainly be one and not actually the greatest. He is the modern day version of Sean Kelly and even he can't be compared to Merckx.
Clamel the details that you mention are something o be looked at and yes Thomas will be better in sprint than Dumoulin and with Dumoulin getting an increase in mtn there will be less need to have his TT quite so high. Sometimes stats are increased or lowered a bit for what can be called a balancing act of which Sagan is a perfect choice.
The final sprint stats and mountain stats will be decided by Sunday.
Interesting to hear if any others like Jens think that Sagan as he is wins enough as irl?
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| quadsas |
Posted on 27-07-2018 19:52
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Naskela wrote:
Sagan is the best trained cyclist and the best in that sense but his achievements is nothing compared to all-round cyclists which i'd say is way harder than specializing in one discipline. Merckx won ten times the amount of classics than Sagan and not to mention he won all the big three week races several times. But sure Sagan has been the most dominant rider of my lifetime and might end up high on an all time list but no way i'd say best of all time non debatable, that's just stupid.
More than half the peloton when Merckx was riding was not full time professionals and only thing taking away some of his success. But still i'd put him over Sagan.
I'm guessing you'd say Bill Russel or Wilt Chamberlain are also the greatest of all time. |
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| QQutec |
Posted on 27-07-2018 20:08
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Amateur
Posts: 20
Joined: 15-07-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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There are a lot of riders with slightly to high stats some examples
Richie Porte Nairo Quintana , Marc Soler , Bardet , Thibaut Pinot , Froome ( Giro lucky win ) Tour was bad. All of them -1 |
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 27-07-2018 20:54
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
t think they were referring to Sagan as being one of the all-time greats or will certainly be one and not actually the greatest. He is the modern day version of Sean Kelly and even he can't be compared to Merckx.
if sagan ends his career with achievements close to sean kellys i will eat my copy of pcm
and sean kelly isnt a guaranteed top 10 rider of all time you could have a big debate and 50% of people will disagree
sagan isnt even guaranteed to be the best rider in the world right now
i personally think he is be but when the pros are asked they almost always say its valverde and they probably know more than me or anyone here
but this is what you always get every year with july fans they watch 1 race only and they think the guy they see in that race is the greatest ever
its like the gronk fans saying hes the greatest ever its ridiculous to anyone who knows the sport |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 21:23
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
t think they were referring to Sagan as being one of the all-time greats or will certainly be one and not actually the greatest. He is the modern day version of Sean Kelly and even he can't be compared to Merckx.
if sagan ends his career with achievements close to sean kellys i will eat my copy of pcm
and sean kelly isnt a guaranteed top 10 rider of all time you could have a big debate and 50% of people will disagree
sagan isnt even guaranteed to be the best rider in the world right now
i personally think he is be but when the pros are asked they almost always say its valverde and they probably know more than me or anyone here
but this is what you always get every year with july fans they watch 1 race only and they think the guy they see in that race is the greatest ever
its like the gronk fans saying hes the greatest ever its ridiculous to anyone who knows the sport
For sure Sagan needs to go someway yet to match Kelly in monuments its a 9-2 difference but is a similar rider.
Valverde is like Moreno Argentin but Argentin was far more sensible and realized he couldn't do GT's whereas Valverde has always believed that he could.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 27-07-2018 21:32
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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yeah but sagan wont ever win big stage races like kelly
sagan is never going to win the vuelta and be 4th in the tour like kelly
a few months ago he said its impossible for him to even win liege or lombardia and kelly won those races 5 times
and kelly won the long tts too
sagan can win cobbles sprints and hilly races if theyre not too tough
kelly could win every race
im not so sure about argentin he was 3rd in the giro and in his 30s he was still trying to ride gc
my dad is always talking about the riders of those days so i hear alot about how argentin was always crashing and getting injured so he missed a lot of seasons
that probably affected his results |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 21:44
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
yeah but sagan wont ever win big stage races like kelly
sagan is never going to win the vuelta and be 4th in the tour like kelly
a few months ago he said its impossible for him to even win liege or lombardia and kelly won those races 5 times
and kelly won the long tts too
sagan can win cobbles sprints and hilly races if theyre not too tough
kelly could win every race
im not so sure about argentin he was 3rd in the giro and in his 30s he was still trying to ride gc
my dad is always talking about the riders of those days so i hear alot about how argentin was always crashing and getting injured so he missed a lot of seasons
that probably affected his results
Even on Eurosport Kelly usually can't explain how he actually won the Vuelta!!! Well Valverde did win a the Vuelta way back BUT was never really a GT rider more a classics rider, which is why I've never agreed with him getting too high mtn stats.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 27-07-2018 21:51
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
yeah but sagan wont ever win big stage races like kelly
sagan is never going to win the vuelta and be 4th in the tour like kelly
a few months ago he said its impossible for him to even win liege or lombardia and kelly won those races 5 times
and kelly won the long tts too
sagan can win cobbles sprints and hilly races if theyre not too tough
kelly could win every race
im not so sure about argentin he was 3rd in the giro and in his 30s he was still trying to ride gc
my dad is always talking about the riders of those days so i hear alot about how argentin was always crashing and getting injured so he missed a lot of seasons
that probably affected his results
Even on Eurosport Kelly usually can't explain how he actually won the Vuelta!!!
Well Valverde did win a the Vuelta way back BUT was never really a GT rider more a classics rider, which is why I've never agreed with him getting too high mtn stats.
ya got ta do da calculashuns
some guys can do anything but just dont try that often
like the guy in your avatar maybe my favorite rider ever |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 07:15
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 22:04
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
yeah but sagan wont ever win big stage races like kelly
sagan is never going to win the vuelta and be 4th in the tour like kelly
a few months ago he said its impossible for him to even win liege or lombardia and kelly won those races 5 times
and kelly won the long tts too
sagan can win cobbles sprints and hilly races if theyre not too tough
kelly could win every race
im not so sure about argentin he was 3rd in the giro and in his 30s he was still trying to ride gc
my dad is always talking about the riders of those days so i hear alot about how argentin was always crashing and getting injured so he missed a lot of seasons
that probably affected his results
Even on Eurosport Kelly usually can't explain how he actually won the Vuelta!!!
Well Valverde did win a the Vuelta way back BUT was never really a GT rider more a classics rider, which is why I've never agreed with him getting too high mtn stats.
ya got ta do da calculashuns
some guys can do anything but just dont try that often
like the guy in your avatar maybe my favorite rider ever
... and also obviously one of mine as well from a period when the sport was at its most exciting. I know people will complain how dirty it was back then but as far as I'm concerned always has been and that has never bothered me, what bothers me is how exciting cycling should be. No boring trains back then leading the peloton to the final hill in the Ardennes. The LBL was the most exciting monument back then and as a classic Fleche wasn't that far behind either. Also back to a time a when a rider could win both LBL and Flanders (even though Flanders had a different course then)
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| henrikcomn |
Posted on 28-07-2018 11:38
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Under 23
Posts: 60
Joined: 13-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg wrote:
Mountain:
82: Frooome
81: Porte, Bardet, Nibali, Thomas
80: Quintana, Doumulin, Landa, Uran, S.Yayes, Bernal, Roglic, Pinot
79: Pozzo, Zakarin, Poels, Martin, Fuglsang, Aru, A.Yayes, Majka
I think a big mistake many of you guys do when showing your prefered mountain stats is, that the mountain stat alone doesnt show that much.. Let me explain:
A guy like Pozzovivo is usually a great climber perse, but does not have the recovery to win a grand tour, and also lack a bit of resistance. However, in a one-day race he is able to compete with the best.
On the other hand is a guy like Nibali. He might not be the best of the best going up a mountain, but he is a fighter and have the ability to be near his best even in a grand tour.
This is how I would put it (just to name a few). First number is mountain, then RES, then REC.
Froome 83, 80, 82
Quintana 83, 77, 77
Landa 82, 77, 79
Pozzovivo 81, 75, 74
Nibali 80, 80, 81
And then you have TT, STA and so on..
Only talking about mountain stat makes little sense to me. You have to show 'the whole picture' as there is many great riders who will challenge the likes of Froome and Porte on single day races and small tours. Giving these riders 76-78 in MO will just make them suck in every race competing with the best.. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 28-07-2018 11:39
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Wasn't Arberg banned?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2018 12:51
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Henrik:
It's often explained on here how other stats are just as important when statting, for example the mtn stat alone is not overly important but what makes it important is the res and acc that go with it for a climber and if the rider is a GT man then rec as well.
I did find though your res stats very high, much higher than ours and ours are also higher than the official db as well.
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| henrikcomn |
Posted on 28-07-2018 15:08
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Under 23
Posts: 60
Joined: 13-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Henrik:
It's often explained on here how other stats are just as important when statting, for example the mtn stat alone is not overly important but what makes it important is the res and acc that go with it for a climber and if the rider is a GT man then rec as well.
I did find though your res stats very high, much higher than ours and ours are also higher than the official db as well.
Yeah the res stat might be to high, it was just to show |
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 29-07-2018 14:38
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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In my opinion DB needs some several changes that can't be only about discussing MO values, for example i'd give Froome 81 MON, but that would mean that he would be on same level as Landa and Bardet, and that's clueless. So, for countbalancing it, i'd raise his RES to 77 or 78, since he's not pure climber.
That said, i try to give my opinion about MON values, but what i've said should be kept in mind.
Froome 81 (raise TTR, RES)
Quintana 81 (lower a bit: REC, RES, STA, REC, now it's been years he's not performing anymore)
Bardet 81 (lower DHI, FTR, REC)
Landa 81 (lower RES, STA, REC)
Nibali 81 (raise FLA and RES)
Porte 81 (raise RES, lower REC)
...Now im done of writing too much...
Dumoulin 80
Thomas 80 (higher back-up stats)
Roglic 79 or 80 (balancing with back-up stats)
I think we need to decrease GAPs between top climbers, that has to be done lowering matrix to 81. And, as said before, this means that this requires some counterbalancing. |
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| Dusen |
Posted on 29-07-2018 15:04
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1173
Joined: 30-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
t think they were referring to Sagan as being one of the all-time greats or will certainly be one and not actually the greatest. He is the modern day version of Sean Kelly and even he can't be compared to Merckx.
Clamel the details that you mention are something o be looked at and yes Thomas will be better in sprint than Dumoulin and with Dumoulin getting an increase in mtn there will be less need to have his TT quite so high. Sometimes stats are increased or lowered a bit for what can be called a balancing act of which Sagan is a perfect choice.
The final sprint stats and mountain stats will be decided by Sunday.
Interesting to hear if any others like Jens think that Sagan as he is wins enough as irl?
I rarely see him win much. In the Be A Pro game i made, he had won 1 stage by May, and that was a stage in Tour of Santos. Im not a blind fan boy, i don't want him to be overpowered, but i think you guys may need to raise a stat somewhere. But i understand your doubts, it's not easy getting him right  |
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| Dusen |
Posted on 29-07-2018 15:05
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1173
Joined: 30-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Btw maybe a bit off topic, but will there be any adjustments for regen riders coming at some point? |
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| jeremyrobin |
Posted on 29-07-2018 19:39
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Under 23
Posts: 59
Joined: 29-09-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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little up in rec for Bernal ? |
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| Grandpa |
Posted on 30-07-2018 08:29
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 29-07-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Here are my ideas Made a DB myself and here are the stats maybe some are useful for the PCM Project.
Geraint Thomas 81 / 77 / 77
Valverde 79 / 74 / 68
Bardet 80 / 73 / 75
Dumoulin 81 / 80 / 79 or 81 / 78 / 79
Froome 82 / 77 / 79
Nibali 80 / 75 / 82
Roglic 80 / 77 / 75
Kruijswijk 80 / 74 / 71 or 80 / 72 / 75
S.Yates 80 / 74 /72
Bernal 80 / 72 / 70
Uran 80 / 73 / 76
Landa 80 / 75 / 79
Martin 80 / 75 / 77
Pinot 80 / 72 / 71
Chavez 79 / 72 / 73
Aru 79 / 72 / 70
Zakarin 78 / 76 / 78 or 79 / 75 / 78
Fuglsang 78 / 76 / 78
Majka 79 / 69 / 72
Pozzo 79 / 71 / 71 or 80 / 70 / 69
Henao 78 / 73 / 71
Poels 78 / 74 / 79
Kledermann 78 / 76 / 77
Jungles 78 / 78 / 79 or 77 / 78 / 77
Got a lot more but thats enough for now
Edited by Grandpa on 30-07-2018 10:11
Be fair to everyone and have a good life.
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| purepasd |
Posted on 30-07-2018 08:52
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Domestique
Posts: 541
Joined: 23-01-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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I like most of your stats, however you just made Jungels a better climber than Zakarin, Fuglsang, Majka, Pozzo and so on. Be careful with the Mo/High resistance combination. Dumoulin will be extremely strong with these stats as well.
Kruijswijk is always great in the 3rd week by the way, should be a lot better in REC. |
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| Grandpa |
Posted on 30-07-2018 09:58
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 29-07-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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purepasd wrote:
I like most of your stats, however you just made Jungels a better climber than Zakarin, Fuglsang, Majka, Pozzo and so on. Be careful with the Mo/High resistance combination. Dumoulin will be extremely strong with these stats as well.
Kruijswijk is always great in the 3rd week by the way, should be a lot better in REC.
Thanks for your tips.
Bob Jungles was really constant during the TdF ended up in front of Fugl and Majka idk how to make it fair there (: What do you think About giving Jungles a 77 / 78 / 77 ?
I will look into the rest and will Change it slightly
Edited by Grandpa on 30-07-2018 10:04
Be fair to everyone and have a good life.
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