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Winter Sport 2017/2018
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 13:47
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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ivaneurope wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Russian athlete caught with meldonium...not surprising...ehm...he is doing curling...what? Doping in curling seems so odd 
The Russian system is massively out of control and we should all panic. If they are doping curling i dread to think what might happen in snooker, darts or golf!
But it's a massive bloody nose to the IOC and the OAR and Russian sport in general. Under all the spotlight in the world to show they are not cheaters and this happens... and after CAS agreed some bans where unfair and not based on enough evidence. A major failing at every single level.
I don't agree with the Russians being referred to as "Olympic Athletes from Russia". There should be no mention of Russia in the name. They should be Individual Athletes or "Athlete's from Banned Country". Also, why are they counted on the medal table? They should not have a place on the medal table. They should not exist as a group of athletes because basically they are just still Russia under a different name.
So your logic is to ban all Russian athletes regardless if they're clean or not? If the IOC didn't allow the clean athletes to even participate under neutral flag, the whole Pyeongchang Olympics would have been considered a failiure ala LA 84 and IOC would've been declared as an inept organisation (not that they're not anyway).
OAR exist in the medal table just like the Unified Team in Albertville '92 or any other Independent Athlete group.
Where have I ever said they shouldn't be allowed to compete? I was simply saying that they shouldn't be allowed to compete under the name of Russia. They should be referred to as something that has no mention of Russia in the name.
And they shouldn't be on the medal table. Simple as that. The Unified Team wasn't subject to an international ban. They just weren't IOC registered at the time because most of the countries had only just came into existence.
Russia are banned. Their athletes should not compete under the name of Russia and they shouldn't be on the medal table.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 13:55
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
That's a bit of a jump to make.
Ringo is saying that OAR shouldn't have Russia, because Russia is banned. It should be Olympic Athletes Independent or something. They still deserve to compete (well, that's arguable given the "clean" athletes just failed a test) but it doesn't feel like a difference given Russia is still everywhere in name, if not flag.
This is not a precedent - in 1980 Moscow Games following the US-led boycott (which later led to the Communist boycott of the 1984 LA Games) the nations that supported the US "banned" themselves, but some had allowed some of their athletes to compete under neutral flag. But in the medals table they're treated as any other nation.
And we all need to distinguish Russia, the country in general, from Russia, the state (i.e. the Russian Federation and it's politics) and from the Russian Olympic Committee. The Russian Olympic Committee is the one that is banned, not Russia as a whole. The OAR alludes to Russia as a geographical place rather than its political entity or its olympic committee
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 14:02
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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ivaneurope wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
That's a bit of a jump to make.
Ringo is saying that OAR shouldn't have Russia, because Russia is banned. It should be Olympic Athletes Independent or something. They still deserve to compete (well, that's arguable given the "clean" athletes just failed a test) but it doesn't feel like a difference given Russia is still everywhere in name, if not flag.
This is not a precedent - in 1980 Moscow Games following the US-led boycott (which later led to the Communist boycott of the 1984 LA Games) the nations that supported the US "banned" themselves, but some had allowed some of their athletes to compete under neutral flag. But in the medals table they're treated as any other nation.
And we all need to distinguish Russia, the country in general, from Russia, the state (i.e. the Russian Federation and it's politics) and from the Russian Olympic Committee. The Russian Olympic Committee is the one that is banned, not Russia as a whole. The OAR alludes to Russia as a geographical place rather than its political entity or its olympic committee
That's just semantics. The Russian Olympic Committee is banned because of a massive, and proven, Government Sponsored doping programme. Russia as a whole is banned. There's no distinguishing between different bodies or the government. Yes, technically the Russian Olympic Committee is banned. But to start saying "Only the Olympic Committee is banned, not the country" is just rubbish.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 14:03
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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ringo182 wrote:
ivaneurope wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Russian athlete caught with meldonium...not surprising...ehm...he is doing curling...what? Doping in curling seems so odd
The Russian system is massively out of control and we should all panic. If they are doping curling i dread to think what might happen in snooker, darts or golf!
But it's a massive bloody nose to the IOC and the OAR and Russian sport in general. Under all the spotlight in the world to show they are not cheaters and this happens... and after CAS agreed some bans where unfair and not based on enough evidence. A major failing at every single level.
I don't agree with the Russians being referred to as "Olympic Athletes from Russia". There should be no mention of Russia in the name. They should be Individual Athletes or "Athlete's from Banned Country". Also, why are they counted on the medal table? They should not have a place on the medal table. They should not exist as a group of athletes because basically they are just still Russia under a different name.
So your logic is to ban all Russian athletes regardless if they're clean or not? If the IOC didn't allow the clean athletes to even participate under neutral flag, the whole Pyeongchang Olympics would have been considered a failiure ala LA 84 and IOC would've been declared as an inept organisation (not that they're not anyway).
OAR exist in the medal table just like the Unified Team in Albertville '92 or any other Independent Athlete group.
Where have I ever said they shouldn't be allowed to compete? I was simply saying that they shouldn't be allowed to compete under the name of Russia. They should be referred to as something that has no mention of Russia in the name.
And they shouldn't be on the medal table. Simple as that. The Unified Team wasn't subject to an international ban. They just weren't IOC registered at the time because most of the countries had only just came into existence.
Russia are banned. Their athletes should not compete under the name of Russia and they shouldn't be on the medal table.
If the IOC didn't allow this, trust me, THERE WOULD BE NO RUSSIAN ATHLETES AT ALL AND THE OLYMPICS WOULD HAVE BEEN FARCE.
By your logic Italy, Spain, UK etc. athletes that participated in Moscow 38 years ago in spite of the US boycott BS, shouldn't be in the medals table, but they do and the IOC acknowledge their accomplishments.
And to make your point MOOT, in Rio athletes from Kuwait were in the medal table as IOP
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 14:06
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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ringo182 wrote:
ivaneurope wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
That's a bit of a jump to make.
Ringo is saying that OAR shouldn't have Russia, because Russia is banned. It should be Olympic Athletes Independent or something. They still deserve to compete (well, that's arguable given the "clean" athletes just failed a test) but it doesn't feel like a difference given Russia is still everywhere in name, if not flag.
This is not a precedent - in 1980 Moscow Games following the US-led boycott (which later led to the Communist boycott of the 1984 LA Games) the nations that supported the US "banned" themselves, but some had allowed some of their athletes to compete under neutral flag. But in the medals table they're treated as any other nation.
And we all need to distinguish Russia, the country in general, from Russia, the state (i.e. the Russian Federation and it's politics) and from the Russian Olympic Committee. The Russian Olympic Committee is the one that is banned, not Russia as a whole. The OAR alludes to Russia as a geographical place rather than its political entity or its olympic committee
That's just semantics. The Russian Olympic Committee is banned because of a massive, and proven, Government Sponsored doping programme. Russia as a whole is banned. There's no distinguishing between different bodies or the government. Yes, technically the Russian Olympic Committee is banned. But to start saying "Only the Olympic Committee is banned, not the country" is just rubbish.
Careful what you're saying, cause you may touch a nerve. And no, I'm not Russian (do some research)
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 19-02-2018 14:33
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Holy sh*t the Two Man Bob finish was.... historic!
Also there were boob in the ice skating.
The Olympics is still wonderful 
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 15:14
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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"By your logic Italy, Spain, UK etc. athletes that participated in Moscow 38 years ago in spite of the US boycott BS, shouldn't be in the medals table, but they do and the IOC acknowledge their accomplishments."
The UK, Spain and Italy weren't banned. How does my logic say they shouldn't have been in the medal table?
The OAR athletes are from a banned country. In effect they are not representing a country. Therefore they shouldn't be inculeded in the medal table which is a list of countries that have won medals.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| Bikex |
Posted on 19-02-2018 15:38
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Team Leader
Posts: 7257
Joined: 25-08-2012
PCM$: 600.00
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Why do you even care? It's not like the Russians are doing extremely well in the medals table. The Russian athletes already had to endure enough repressions by now, I think at some point demanding more sanctions can just be explained by personal antipathy against Russia in general. Everyone knows the athletes starting with the olympic flag are Russians, not including Russia in the name "OAR" or keeping them out of the medals table wouldn't change a thing. |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 15:50
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Bikex wrote:
Why do you even care? It's not like the Russians are doing extremely well in the medals table. The Russian athletes already had to endure enough repressions by now, I think at some point demanding more sanctions can just be explained by personal antipathy against Russia in general. Everyone knows the athletes starting with the olympic flag are Russians, not including Russia in the name "OAR" or keeping them out of the medals table wouldn't change a thing.
Well Russia has been banned because they have systematically being cheating for decades.
You are happy for Russian athletes, (who despite being passed as clean have still been funded, and trained and supported by the corrupt Russian system) to compete under the name of Russia? What is the point of banning Russia and then allowing Russian athletes to compete under the name of Russia?
And no, they aren't doing well in the medal table. But what if they were top or in the top 5 or so. It would make a complete mockery of the whole Olympic movement.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 15:56
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Bikex wrote:
Why do you even care? It's not like the Russians are doing extremely well in the medals table. The Russian athletes already had to endure enough repressions by now, I think at some point demanding more sanctions can just be explained by personal antipathy against Russia in general. Everyone knows the athletes starting with the olympic flag are Russians, not including Russia in the name "OAR" or keeping them out of the medals table wouldn't change a thing.
Because despite having near 170 athletes the OAR's power is crippled thanks to IOC not allowing athletes that are 100% proven that they're clean like Shipulin, Ustyugov and Ahn to compete. Their only shot at gold now rests with the men's ice hockey team (NHL cleared their path, thanks a lot Bettman you greedy c**t), but IOC may do shenanigans to ensure they'd never get to the final (making OAR empty handed in the process). When was the last time Russia/USSR ended Olympics with 0 gold medals?
IMO the "Olympic Athlete(s) from Russia" was done as a compromise to ensure the participation of clean (on paper) Russian athletes at the Games. If they've gone with say "Independent Olympic Athletes", then maybe most of the athletes would have rejected the invitations saying "take your invitation and shove it in your @$$3$". The OAR was the reasonable solution, otherwise Putin would have not approved the participation of any Russian athlete in Pyeongchang and would have staged his own Winter Olympics in Sochi (the plan would go ahead anyway).
Back to the OAR positive - I think that this may've crossed the line and I fear that Russia would be banned entirely in Tokyo 2020. No matter how we try to deny it, politics will always prevail in sport.
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| Bikex |
Posted on 19-02-2018 16:19
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Team Leader
Posts: 7257
Joined: 25-08-2012
PCM$: 600.00
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ringo182 wrote:
Bikex wrote:
Why do you even care? It's not like the Russians are doing extremely well in the medals table. The Russian athletes already had to endure enough repressions by now, I think at some point demanding more sanctions can just be explained by personal antipathy against Russia in general. Everyone knows the athletes starting with the olympic flag are Russians, not including Russia in the name "OAR" or keeping them out of the medals table wouldn't change a thing.
Well Russia has been banned because they have systematically being cheating for decades.
You are happy for Russian athletes, (who despite being passed as clean have still been funded, and trained and supported by the corrupt Russian system) to compete under the name of Russia? What is the point of banning Russia and then allowing Russian athletes to compete under the name of Russia?
And no, they aren't doing well in the medal table. But what if they were top or in the top 5 or so. It would make a complete mockery of the whole Olympic movement.
It does not make a difference for me if athletes start under "Olympic Athlete from Russia" or "Independent Olympic Athlete", as in both cases I know that they are Russians.
Also my understanding of right disagrees with how many of those athletes have been treated, as I do not believe collective punishment should be a thing in a just set of rules. Anyone that calls himself civilized should agree with me here.
Don't be afraid OAR will be nowhere near the top of the medals table. The IOC took care of that by excluding some of the best Russian athletes with some extremely flimsy reasoning. This is already a complete mockery of the Olympic movement. |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:10
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Classics Specialist
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The only mockery is that Russian athletes are allowed to compete at all given that their governing body has been proven to be cheating for decades. In what other sport would a team/individual/country that has been proven to have been cheating for decades be allowed to compete?
English football teams were banned completely from European football club competitions for years during the 80's because of the behaviour of fans, not the teams or the English FA. Yet Russia as a country cheats for decades and is still allowed to send athletes. I can't believe you are trying to defend Russia and make out Russia has been hard done by by the IOC. They have been treated incredibly leniently to be allowed to send athletes at all.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:15
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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ringo182 wrote:
The only mockery is that Russian athletes are allowed to compete at all given that their governing body has been proven to be cheating for decades. In what other sport would a team/individual/country that has been proven to have been cheating for decades be allowed to compete?
So you finally admit that you want all Russian athletes banned - even the clean one? The USA also cheats or you're turning blind eye for this.
EDIT: I wish there was ignore list
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:37
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
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So can someone (ringo182) give a reason why Sundby and Lapshin (both of them had positive tests) are racing but not Ustiugov or Shipulin?
The user formerly known as 'The Schleck Fan'
Gracias Alberto.
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:44
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Forever the Best wrote:
So can someone (ringo182) give a reason why Sundby and Lapshin (both of them had positive tests) are racing but not Ustiugov or Shipulin?
You can't argue with him - even if he's wrong, he's sure that he's right. That's why the "user blacklist" needs to be implemented.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:45
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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ivaneurope wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
The only mockery is that Russian athletes are allowed to compete at all given that their governing body has been proven to be cheating for decades. In what other sport would a team/individual/country that has been proven to have been cheating for decades be allowed to compete?
So you finally admit that you want all Russian athletes banned - even the clean one? The USA also cheats or you're turning blind eye for this.
EDIT: I wish there was ignore list
I want all countries proven to have cheated systematically to be banned, yes.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:45
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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ivaneurope wrote:
Forever the Best wrote:
So can someone (ringo182) give a reason why Sundby and Lapshin (both of them had positive tests) are racing but not Ustiugov or Shipulin?
You can't argue with him - even if he's wrong, he's sure that he's right. That's why the "user blacklist" needs to be implemented.
No, why would I want to?
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-02-2018 17:54
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
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So you're fine to stip the hopes of many CLEAN athletes from the opportunity to compete just because of someone else's transgressions? Then I must put you in my blacklist, but PCM.Daily sadly does not offer the option of filtering posts, so simply not post in any thread in which the last post is mine
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 19-02-2018 18:19
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
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Oh no, a Russian trying to censor an opinion, how quaint.
Look, its a difference of opinions. Let's not get weird about it. It's a perfectly valid point to say that a country that has been proven to have cheated to be banned or punished.
As for clean Russians, yeah it's a shame for them. But at some point you have to say enough is enough. What do you want, all countries to be allowed to run doping systems and only the athletes who get caught get banned. The rest can carry on as if nothing has happened? These 'clean' athletes are still the product of a cheat system.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 19-02-2018 18:24
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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ringo182 wrote:
Oh no, a Russian trying to censor an opinion, how quaint.
Look, its a difference of opinions. Let's not get weird about it. It's a perfectly valid point to say that a country that has been proven to have cheated to be banned or punished.
As for clean Russians, yeah it's a shame for them. But at some point you have to say enough is enough. What do you want, all countries to be allowed to run doping systems and only the athletes who get caught get banned. The rest can carry on as if nothing has happened? These 'clean' athletes are still the product of a cheat system. Why are Sundby and Lapshin racing here?
The user formerly known as 'The Schleck Fan'
Gracias Alberto.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
