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Knockout's PT Prediction
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| knockout |
Posted on 27-10-2017 23:49
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Grand Tour Champion

Posts: 8237
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 500.00
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One race into the season isnt too late for my PT prediction:
- 400 simulations
- exact same method as in the other predictions. Method explained again in post 2 (copy pasted from the pct thread with the exception of the pure OVR based ranking ofc).
- results are rough estimates on likelyhood to finish at certain ranking regions based on subjective grading of every rider.
Enjoy
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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| knockout |
Posted on 27-10-2017 23:51
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Grand Tour Champion

Posts: 8237
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 500.00
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Having done previews in the past and enjoying reading previews of others there are two issues with most previews in my mind:
1. You don't see the quality gaps between teams. Many previews present only the final rank prediction. That is fine and i am already happy about anything but it only tells you a part of the story. Often predictors will have a couple of teams that look just about equally strong with close to no difference in between.
Whether they put a certain team at e.g. 3. or 7. can look like a rather big difference but the creator might see them as basically similar strong likely seperated by 50 or 100 points while the 2. and 3. team might be seperated by a huge gap of 200 points in the mind of the creator. Those gaps are very interesting to see imo but only few prediction format can show them. Jandal shows them a bit by grouping teams into different categories and Marco shows them with a difference in "some artificial Team-OVR" but I'm looking for a better visable gap indicator.
2. Many predictions expect teams to follow a certain team building guideline to get a good ranking predictions. Like: "You need one super good main leader, bonus points if it's a climber. You also need another at least sub-top leader in every terrain. All of them need at least one good lieutenant. etc.". I am a firm believer that quality is quality. You don't have to follow traditional thinking to make a good team. You can be succesful by simply having only many sub-top riders, you can focus on one or two terrains only and be succesful (see Gazelle, Strava, Evonik or 2014 Euskaltel). But the most important point is the quality you have in your team.
I've tried to implement these two thoughts into a formula. I feel like OVR is already a very good indicator for the quality of a rider and better than every improvised formula i could come up with so i came up with a formula that directly translates the overall of a rider into expected points. This formula comes straight from the 2016 final rankings of the division.
Adding the best 20 riders (=min number needed) of each team together leads to the pure-OVR based prediction. Every rider over that limit would reduce the RDs used of the better rider so I decided to ignore them to have a fair basis to treat the different teams. (it can be a nice help in some situation to have an additional specialized helper but in most cases it doesnt matter much whether #20 or #21 is the filler in the race)
This is the pure-OVR based prediction:
| Team | Manager | PT | | 1 | Festina - Dexia | SotD | 7299 | | 2 | Moser - Sygic | Roman | 6920 | | 3 | Team Puma - SAP | cio93 | 6477 | | 4 | Pendleton's | wackojackohighcliffe | 6432 | | 5 | Vesuvio - Accumalux | SportingNonsense | 6379 | | 6 | Aker - MOT | ember | 6363 | | 7 | Aegon - Lavazza | roturn | 6170 | | 8 | Wiesenhof - Andritz | Heine | 6114 | | 9 | Gazelle | DubbelDekker | 5965 | | 10 | Hugo Boss | dev4ever | 5942 | | 11 | RBC Pro Cycling | jt1109 | 5763 | | 12 | eBuddy | alexkr00 | 5585 | | 13 | Tinkoff Sport Academy | OlegTinkov | 5565 | | 14 | Jayco - Cobra9 | tsmoha | 5541 | | 15 | Porto - Prio | Gustavovskiy | 5500 | | 16 | Spotify - Haglöfs | viking90 | 5421 | | 17 | Evonik - ELKO | knockout | 5419 | | 18 | Iberia - Team Degenkolb | beagle | 5238 | | 19 | Strava | Shonak | 5000 | | 20 | Project: Africa | aidanvn13 | 4972 | | 21 | Nemiroff - ABBYY | fjhoekie | 4402 | | 22 | Ayubowan! | jph27 | 4203 |
I then went through the list of riders and adjusted expected points of many riders based on how i rate their stats and how well they performed in 2016 (measured in points). That were especially downgrades for one dimensional climbers without acceleration and 76-78 sprinters and upgrades for versatile riders like Bille, low AVG TTers like Stannard and other underrated riders like Chavanne. This step was fully suspective and since i basically looked over every rider the influence of the original formula was widely reduced but is only used as a baseline for my grading of better riders and as a grade for lesser rider. The result is a list of expected points for each rider.
I think of gained points of a rider in a season as a statistical random variable that (if we played a season often enough) would be distributed randomly around the expectated points with a certain variance. For this preview I assumed a Gaussian distribution eventhough that's obviously not really the ideal case but it is simple and good enough to work for a model like this. The variance depends on the highest main stat so that a TTist or a climber will have a higher variance than a puncheur.
I then simulated 500 seasons based on these numbers to see how likely each team is to finish in a certain spot of the rankings. The results are seen in the matrix posted below. How to read the chart:
Place = The predicted finishing position as seen in all other predictions. This should be used to compare my method with other predictions for a fair comparison.
AVG = Average finishing position of 500 simulations
1 = Observed probability to finish 1st
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Please note: I haven't adjusted anything for the new calendar because i don't know yet how much the expected points should change. I also didnt looked at any announced race planning information to change the numbers. These numbers should simply be seen as an idea for expected finish, best case and worst case instead of any real realistic numbers.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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| knockout |
Posted on 27-10-2017 23:52
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Grand Tour Champion

Posts: 8237
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 500.00
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- You can post now -
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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| roturn |
Posted on 28-10-2017 06:59
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Team Manager

Posts: 22043
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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Seeing Sagan doing well and De Bie sucking, I doubt the 22% against Mosers 9,5% are correct.
I guess if the season goes as Badaling, then there will be a huge down for me and more top7 then top3.
But interesting statistics clearly and nice to see my team doing well as well in this one. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 07-12-2025 21:55
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Bot Agent
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 28-10-2017 07:10
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Directeur Sportif

Posts: 9137
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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Nice to see Strava safe in your lovely predictions!
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| viking90 |
Posted on 28-10-2017 08:14
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Classics Specialist

Posts: 3836
Joined: 24-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Another prediction having us safely from relegation, looks like we really can make that judging all preview...
Kind of puts some pressure on me and my planning...
Thanks for this nice preview! |
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| Roman |
Posted on 28-10-2017 18:02
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Grand Tour Specialist

Posts: 4279
Joined: 29-05-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Finally a prediction where my team finishes outside of top 2! Should surely lower my expectations from this season a little bit then. 
Also quite surprising to me to see Tinkoff around relegation places.
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| knockout |
Posted on 28-10-2017 21:43
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Grand Tour Champion

Posts: 8237
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 500.00
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Thanks for the replies 
roturn - I also felt the difference was a bit too big but I already rated Sagan 250 or 300 points higher than De Bie after their performances last season. I think the added points potential of Dekker (and Groenewegen) will push you forward and i see you as challenger no.1 
( i have Swift, keizer and Dekker as better scorers than De Bie)
Strava - A big reason why i think they a have a good season is that i expect Bakelandts to score more than last season. With EBH out of the division and Trofimov on the decline he can get a bigger share of the season. It's possible that i might have overrated a few secondary slightly because i like many of them a lot 
Viking - 100% subjective looking at your team I'd put you slightly lower as well but you have a good depth in your team and it could be enough 
Roman - As you probably remember from our talks during transfers I don't rate Velits high which probably pushes you down a bit in my predictions. The reduction of race days for most leaders will probably harm Bewley less than the top stage racers. Since i decided to ignore that change in the prediction (because of not being able to judge how big the impact will be), your team is naturally underrated already. Imo you should be predicted ahead of Puma but i think Aegon is at least equally good - perhaps better.
Imo, the problem of Tinkoff is that they only have two scorers. I'm not sure how big Trofimov will regress but he shouldnt be capable of repeating last season. Also I dont rate Kritsky that high and don't think that he will improve a lot from last season (unless he has lots of luck with startlists).
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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| SotD |
Posted on 29-10-2017 08:04
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World Champion

Posts: 12631
Joined: 29-11-2006
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This is some really interesting stuff. I'm happy to see that there's 0% chance of me relegating 
Our percentage of winning, is a bit too high IMO, but we know better next season what to do with the figures of the reduced calender and change to PTHC races instead of HC limitations.
I think Moser - Sygic is valued too low, and I believe that is a mistake in the OVL ranking. Maybe 20 riders is too many for a realistic variable, as I don't think any team in the PT have more than 15 riders worth more than the minimum amount of points. So maybe it would be an idea to "cut" there - Not knowing whether that would change Moser's position.
Bewley should be upgraded in terms of OVL though, as he will definately win the rankings this season. He is always in top 3, and his rider type is the least affected of those possible to challenge. Riders like Pluchkin, Spilak, Taaramäe and Schleck who are the only realistic challengers all needed perfect seasons to threaten him, while Bewley could toy away 10 racedays without too much of a problem, and still be in top 3. So his loss of racedays isn't important as long as he still win the races he usually wins, while the others need to ride even more perfect (Not possible as they can't ride 2 Grand Tours anymore).
That said, I really like this approach! Nice piece of work mate!
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| knockout |
Posted on 29-10-2017 09:53
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Grand Tour Champion

Posts: 8237
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 500.00
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Thanks 
Bewley was of course upgraded to be the rider with the highest expected points. Iirc I set him on 24xx points with Taaramae / Schleck the next bests with 2100 or 2200 points (and the stage racers on a lot higher variance).
The difference between the #15 and #20 of teams are low. In most teams that are like 25 points or so which doesn't make the big difference anyway.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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| Shonak |
Posted on 29-10-2017 21:03
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Tour de France Champion

Posts: 15579
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haha knockout <3 appreciate the confidence in my team, hope your numbers don't lie and we somehow make it.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| knockout |
Posted on 29-10-2017 21:36
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Grand Tour Champion

Posts: 8237
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 500.00
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Bakelandts better be set for the great season I expect from him
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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