I see that 5-6 racedays are taken from all riders. Have you considered what that will bring of consequenses?
I mean, some riders will be hit quite hard by this, while others not so much...
Cobblers in general have PLENTY of racedays to spare, while others have the option of riding hardly at all or skipping Grand Tours...
A rider like Simon Spilak f.e. is one of the most versatile riders and I have put MILLIONS into making him that versatile. He is usually not targeting more than one Grand Tour pr. season as he is not the best Grand Tour rider, but a very very strong one. If he goes from 40 to 34 racedays, that will hit him much much harder than Andy Schleck who have the same, but can just keep on riding Grand Tours and winning them like he pleases.
The versatile top riders will imo be hit way harder than those one-trick ponies who will just win what they ride anyway.
I think this will make one-high stat riders way more valuable than they deserve, and I think that's something to be considered. Looking at the raceplanning I'm considering selling Spilak as he is likely to be one of those riders that goes from 3-5th in the individual ranking to 10-15th from this, despite the others losing a similar amount of racedays. I see other riders being hit aswell, with also some riders greatly benefitting from it. Riders like Dombrowski, Skujins, Ginanni and van Garderen will like this much more than riders like Bakelants, Ponzi, Trofimov, Bobridge and Gesink.
Swift, Ahlstrand, Cavendish and Mohs will like this much more than riders like Degenkolb, Bewley, van Stayen and Kristoff. Zmorka, Durbridge, Vlatos and Ford will like this much more than riders like Coppel, Fiedler, Keizer and Cornu etc.
While I'm always having some troubles making my riders ride what I like, this season could become even more of a struggle with 3 Grand Tours I basically can't fix without saying that Spilak must ride 2 of them. Last season it was possible to say that Spilak took one and Lecuisinier another, because Spilak only "lost" 2 racedays having 40 in total. Having 34 would mean losing 8 racedays. That can not be covered by riding none or just one GT and 13 racedays spread across the season as a spare.
If we look at this from a GT perspective, these riders will lose big:
- Simon Spilak
- Robert Gesink
- Taylor Phinney
- Martijn Keizer
- Yuriy Trofimov
They are all likely to ride one Grand Tour with top 5-10 goals in sight, while needing to provide the majority of their points from other races.
These riders are invited to a 2 GT fest, not actually being able to score significantly higher from doing anything else:
- Andy Schleck
- Rein Taaramae
- Aleksandr Pluchkin
- Justo Tenorio
- Joe Dombrowski
- Timofey Kritskiy
Atleast we, with several versatile riders, will need to know what the points look like from the PTHC and what the racedays are actually presented as, before having any chance what so ever to pick a PTHC band.
The RDs were meant to be reduced as a percentage, tied to the reduction in the size of the calendar. Roturn will have to confirm that was indeed the case, but originally that was always the plan.
I do understand the issue you raise though. It may be worth considering tapering off the reduction in RDs at the top end, as 34 is a little too restrictive for the top riders. But saying that, the reduction is even - and higher OVL riders have less RDs as in theory they should be the most versatile, so with more RDs they would likely find themselves winning more. For example, riders like GVA could compete on 3 terrains, and would likely do so with more RDs.
Finally, on your point about the PTHC point scales - they're in the thread now, having been included in the updated point scales file.
Phinney probably won't ride a GT unless the tour is a TT fest no point when he is more effective in TT heavy stage races like the Dauphine and the Prava Czech stage race he will probably get more points doing that then a GT
SotD wrote:
I see that 5-6 racedays are taken from all riders. Have you considered what that will bring of consequenses?
I mean, some riders will be hit quite hard by this, while others not so much...
Cobblers in general have PLENTY of racedays to spare, while others have the option of riding hardly at all or skipping Grand Tours...
A rider like Simon Spilak f.e. is one of the most versatile riders and I have put MILLIONS into making him that versatile. He is usually not targeting more than one Grand Tour pr. season as he is not the best Grand Tour rider, but a very very strong one. If he goes from 40 to 34 racedays, that will hit him much much harder than Andy Schleck who have the same, but can just keep on riding Grand Tours and winning them like he pleases.
The versatile top riders will imo be hit way harder than those one-trick ponies who will just win what they ride anyway.
I think this will make one-high stat riders way more valuable than they deserve, and I think that's something to be considered. Looking at the raceplanning I'm considering selling Spilak as he is likely to be one of those riders that goes from 3-5th in the individual ranking to 10-15th from this, despite the others losing a similar amount of racedays. I see other riders being hit aswell, with also some riders greatly benefitting from it. Riders like Dombrowski, Skujins, Ginanni and van Garderen will like this much more than riders like Bakelants, Ponzi, Trofimov, Bobridge and Gesink.
Swift, Ahlstrand, Cavendish and Mohs will like this much more than riders like Degenkolb, Bewley, van Stayen and Kristoff. Zmorka, Durbridge, Vlatos and Ford will like this much more than riders like Coppel, Fiedler, Keizer and Cornu etc.
While I'm always having some troubles making my riders ride what I like, this season could become even more of a struggle with 3 Grand Tours I basically can't fix without saying that Spilak must ride 2 of them. Last season it was possible to say that Spilak took one and Lecuisinier another, because Spilak only "lost" 2 racedays having 40 in total. Having 34 would mean losing 8 racedays. That can not be covered by riding none or just one GT and 13 racedays spread across the season as a spare.
If we look at this from a GT perspective, these riders will lose big:
- Simon Spilak
- Robert Gesink
- Taylor Phinney
- Martijn Keizer
- Yuriy Trofimov
They are all likely to ride one Grand Tour with top 5-10 goals in sight, while needing to provide the majority of their points from other races.
These riders are invited to a 2 GT fest, not actually being able to score significantly higher from doing anything else:
- Andy Schleck
- Rein Taaramae
- Aleksandr Pluchkin
- Justo Tenorio
- Joe Dombrowski
- Timofey Kritskiy
Atleast we, with several versatile riders, will need to know what the points look like from the PTHC and what the racedays are actually presented as, before having any chance what so ever to pick a PTHC band.
So there goes any chance of signing one of these. Which means that I'd be stuck with practicly useless riders.
Obviously by adding something new, not all consequences must be positive. Some might be negative even and then it`s a thing to work on for the following season.
e.g. the strict race day to OVL stat system. If cobblers prove to be too dominant race day/points ratio wise, we might need to consider highering the OVL for cobblers. And also maybe change the small factors a bit to balance it out for the different types of stage racers.
Not 100% getting your sprinter point as you say Swift wins, Degenkolb loses. But in fact they are very similar riders I believe.
The sprinters OVL was fixed a bit last year as their OVL was way lower than for stage racers or puncheurs but their scoring was just as good. Hence the OVL went up a bit for sprinters before last season and their race days obviously down a bit.
Imo last season worked well with sprinters in the ratio of race day and points scored.
The PT teams had 204 race days last year and are now down to 176 in total. Hence we can`t keep the 2016 race days for them. We had to go down for obvious reasons. And by going down about the same percentage as the total race days, it`s best balanced.
Spilak can still ride like 1 GT, 2 stage races, 2 classics or something. Or 1 GT, 1 stage race, 6 classics or so. Hence could still do very well in different types of races. (Those are just about numbers, did not check 100% forall specific combinations).
So yes, some teams might be happier about those changes as others. But then again imo the top top riders lack the biggest problem due to this cut. Teams with a very good depth of 78-80 riders might profit from such change as they won`t see 5-10 82+ stage racers in every single race day. Or maybe even this way having better chances of doing well in PTHC for example.
Hard to say before the season and probably needs to be evaluated after the year and then discuss if specific kind of riders (cobblers, mountain/hill stage racers, climbers, mountain/tt combos, and and and) will need to be adjusted a bit.
I am very open for any MG talk during the season to improve the game.
But right now I think it`s still very hard to judge if your points are play out as you say or not. It`s just your theory on paper but very difficult to prove with 48 teams riding in PCT with all different tactics or 22 PT teams ride the PT schedule with very different tactics.
Others had said, Pluchkin`s double GT was boring or unfair as he was too good for 2 GTs. So it`s always going into different ways of thinking and after the season we surely can discuss which was good and which wasn`t. Very interested in doing such a discussion.
ivaneurope wrote:
So there goes any chance of signing one of these. Which means that I'd be stuck with practicly useless riders.
If it helps you sleep better at night, there's literally no chance of a scenario arising in which any of the mentioned riders would be affordable for a CT team. Maybe Michael Ford if you put all your eggs in one basket.
roturn wrote:
Obviously by adding something new, not all consequences must be positive. Some might be negative even and then it`s a thing to work on for the following season.
e.g. the strict race day to OVL stat system. If cobblers prove to be too dominant race day/points ratio wise, we might need to consider highering the OVL for cobblers. And also maybe change the small factors a bit to balance it out for the different types of stage racers.
Of course. I'm also fine with the fact that things change, and not always to my advantage (fewer races would usually favor me, having top level riders and less "base" than most).
roturn wrote:Not 100% getting your sprinter point as you say Swift wins, Degenkolb loses. But in fact they are very similar riders I believe.
Yup, my mistake. I saw Swift having 59COB, not 69.
roturn wrote:The sprinters OVL was fixed a bit last year as their OVL was way lower than for stage racers or puncheurs but their scoring was just as good. Hence the OVL went up a bit for sprinters before last season and their race days obviously down a bit.
Imo last season worked well with sprinters in the ratio of race day and points scored.
The PT teams had 204 race days last year and are now down to 176 in total. Hence we can`t keep the 2016 race days for them. We had to go down for obvious reasons. And by going down about the same percentage as the total race days, it`s best balanced.
I agree that the sprinters have been corrected well, I don't necesarily agree with the percentage thing, as riders with very few racedays (and the rule about attending 2 Grand Tours) aren't hit equal. If there was no such thing as "You can always ride 2 Grand Tours" I would tend to agree, but as it is now you end up risking a 34RD rider riding 42RD, while another 34RD rider riding 34RD. That's not ideal. Especially not when we know the history of the game, and that certain riders are GC beasts, while others are scoring from the versatility advantage. Simon Spilak would never win an ardennes, but are likely to podium, and would win 1/5 GC races while a rider like Andy Schleck would win 3/5 (atleast) GC races, while wouldn't get points form ardennes. Those riders are favoured.
If the rule applied for other aspects eg. Spilak getting to ride freely for the classics, like Schleck gets to ride freely in one GT, then things were back to the original balance. This would mean that while Schleck rides 8 free stages of the Grand Tour, Spilak could ride the Milano San Remo, Amstel Gold Race, Fleche Wallone and Giro di Lombardia. And no one would find that fair - For obvious reasons. But it is kind of what happens the other way around (not quite as points heavy, but still some riders would greatly benefit from those 8 days while others wouldn't get one single point extra).
roturn wrote:Spilak can still ride like 1 GT, 2 stage races, 2 classics or something. Or 1 GT, 1 stage race, 6 classics or so. Hence could still do very well in different types of races. (Those are just about numbers, did not check 100% forall specific combinations).
Not if 6 racedays apply for Spilak. Then he would be able to ride:
roturn wrote:So yes, some teams might be happier about those changes as others. But then again imo the top top riders lack the biggest problem due to this cut. Teams with a very good depth of 78-80 riders might profit from such change as they won`t see 5-10 82+ stage racers in every single race day. Or maybe even this way having better chances of doing well in PTHC for example.
Hard to say before the season and probably needs to be evaluated after the year and then discuss if specific kind of riders (cobblers, mountain/hill stage racers, climbers, mountain/tt combos, and and and) will need to be adjusted a bit.
I am very open for any MG talk during the season to improve the game.
But right now I think it`s still very hard to judge if your points are play out as you say or not. It`s just your theory on paper but very difficult to prove with 48 teams riding in PCT with all different tactics or 22 PT teams ride the PT schedule with very different tactics.
Others had said, Pluchkin`s double GT was boring or unfair as he was too good for 2 GTs. So it`s always going into different ways of thinking and after the season we surely can discuss which was good and which wasn`t. Very interested in doing such a discussion.
Whether a tactic is boring or not is irrelevant, though. I do agree that nothing can be concluded from my points. I was merely racing the question as to whether or not my points had been thought through before changing the raceday issue as drastic. It may not be as drastic as you said in the first post 5-6RD, but when starting to plan goals and such I have to use the figure 6RD less to each of my riders. And doing that, I spotted some (for us) unfortunate things, especially for my main star. I'm OK with that, btw. I have won the rankings and don't necessarily aim for that again, so the whining has changed (Is my point anyway) to wanting the game to be as sharp as possible. Otherwise I would always change things to my likings
As I said in the other topic, PT cobblers need their race days reduced or they will dominate the PTHC races. A quick count shows me that they can ride all cobbled races on the calendar, while stage racers, sprinter and puncheurs can't. As a PCT specialised on cobbles, that's a major problem of course, as the PT opposition I face will be tougher than other specialties.
Ollfardh wrote:
As I said in the other topic, PT cobblers need their race days reduced or they will dominate the PTHC races. A quick count shows me that they can ride all cobbled races on the calendar, while stage racers, sprinter and puncheurs can't. As a PCT specialised on cobbles, that's a major problem of course, as the PT opposition I face will be tougher than other specialties.
I see your problem but to what should it be reduced? 15 RDs? With the size of the cobbles calendar there is not much one can do. Reducing the RDs can not be possible because a cobbler can only use like half of his race days on cobbles and you can't reduce the RDs that much.
Indeed as knockout said, you can't possibly reduce RD enough to make any cobbler miss a cobbled race.
The only thing that arbitrarily reducing their RD does is make versatile cobblers less valuable.
Just look at my squad where Blythe, Daniel, Weber, Lander can sprint and Declerq is decent on hills...they all serve a purpose in non-cobbled races, and I specifically targeted and pay them for that.
Looks like a possible issue in planning but cobble races don't overlap in RL either, don't see why they should in MG. Cobblers are not 0815 racers either, they are a special kind, less in numbers, unlike GC or sprinters.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Ollfardh wrote:
As I said in the other topic, PT cobblers need their race days reduced or they will dominate the PTHC races. A quick count shows me that they can ride all cobbled races on the calendar, while stage racers, sprinter and puncheurs can't. As a PCT specialised on cobbles, that's a major problem of course, as the PT opposition I face will be tougher than other specialties.
Alternative suggestion: Double the number of PT cobbled race days
